Homosexuality v. Divorce - Sin is sin, isn't it?

mismi40 wrote:

Coolwhip wrote:
I wonder how christians explain all the gay animals out there, because there are a lot. Can animals sin? Do they end up in, say, doggie hell?

Cool Whip..doggies eat doodoo sometimes too...not something we humans would do. Not a good argument!

Christians usually say homosexuality is unnatural, when that clearly is false. And it's not just dogs; giraffes, birds, peguines etc.

Birds do it, bees do it, even educated fleas do it.

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USAFHokie80 wrote:

Linkat wrote:
I wanted to make one other statement in regard to conservative Christians and homosexuality. There is hope in conservatives accepting at least to some degree.

My husband is a conservative Christian - his up bringing. It could be difficult some times because he was so against such relationships. Me, I could not understand how something between two loving adults could be wrong. Well, God has a funny way of working. He paired up in sense my husband with a gay man (not as a couple of course). My husband's number 1 employee is gay and lives with his partner. This guy is so great as an employee (my husband relies on him to pretty much run things) and as a human being. As a result my husband is re-thinking his opinion. I think this is so awesome how much my husband really likes and respects this person.

As the saying goes - God works in mysterous ways.

That's great. However, most people wouldn't let someone being "a great person" affect their opinion of said person if he were gay. I've heard many times "oh, he's really <insert>, but.... he's gay."

Whatever you believe - whether you feel this is a bigoted opinion that gay relationships is wrong or not - you need to be open that others have different opinions.

Some feel that having sex before marriage is wrong - is that a bigoted feeling - no! You don't understand - Christians whether they feel gay marriage is o-k or not, do not feel that gays should have any less rights - it is just that they feel that style of living is not o-k.

You are being closed minded by not trying to respect their point of view. Also it will get you no where. By being able to listen to others viewpoints and respect them and perhaps allowing them to see other side through experience, they can also gain an understanding. In other words, by being closed minded yourself - you get no where.

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mismi40 wrote:

Coolwhip wrote:
I wonder how christians explain all the gay animals out there, because there are a lot. Can animals sin? Do they end up in, say, doggie hell?

Cool Whip..doggies eat doodoo sometimes too...not something we humans would do. Not a good argument!

Animals are also not made in God's imagine. Completely different concept.

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I always forget that christians tend to 'prove' things by quoting the bible rather than using logic.

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You are right, I have heard that argument too...I guess it seems unnatural to a heterosexual - but then that would be a comment based on emotion. We have tendencies to do things that are wrong all the time. People murder, lie, steal, drink until they can't think and then drive, all manner of things that they feel like doing, want to do, can't help but do - whatever...but that doesn't make it right. Self-control is one of the things that sets us apart from animals. We see something and want it - but it doesn't always mean we go get it or do it, if it is not right.

Now the argument comes down to who defines right and wrong? Society? God? There will always be that tug of war. I don't think that tension will ever go away.

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Linkat wrote:

mismi40 wrote:
Coolwhip wrote:
I wonder how christians explain all the gay animals out there, because there are a lot. Can animals sin? Do they end up in, say, doggie hell?

Cool Whip..doggies eat doodoo sometimes too...not something we humans would do. Not a good argument!

Animals are also not made in God's imagine. Completely different concept.

Neither are women.

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Linkat wrote:

USAFHokie80 wrote:
Linkat wrote:
I wanted to make one other statement in regard to conservative Christians and homosexuality. There is hope in conservatives accepting at least to some degree.

My husband is a conservative Christian - his up bringing. It could be difficult some times because he was so against such relationships. Me, I could not understand how something between two loving adults could be wrong. Well, God has a funny way of working. He paired up in sense my husband with a gay man (not as a couple of course). My husband's number 1 employee is gay and lives with his partner. This guy is so great as an employee (my husband relies on him to pretty much run things) and as a human being. As a result my husband is re-thinking his opinion. I think this is so awesome how much my husband really likes and respects this person.

As the saying goes - God works in mysterous ways.

That's great. However, most people wouldn't let someone being "a great person" affect their opinion of said person if he were gay. I've heard many times "oh, he's really <insert>, but.... he's gay."

Whatever you believe - whether you feel this is a bigoted opinion that gay relationships is wrong or not - you need to be open that others have different opinions.

Some feel that having sex before marriage is wrong - is that a bigoted feeling - no! You don't understand - Christians whether they feel gay marriage is o-k or not, do not feel that gays should have any less rights - it is just that they feel that style of living is not o-k.

You are being closed minded by not trying to respect their point of view. Also it will get you no where. By being able to listen to others viewpoints and respect them and perhaps allowing them to see other side through experience, they can also gain an understanding. In other words, by being closed minded yourself - you get no where.

I'm not being "close minded." I'm just pointing out that it is unfair - whatever your opinion. It is denying rights. Hell, Bush rode the gay marriage opponents into office.

If the problem with gay marriage is that "marriage is between a man and a woman" that's fine- call it a different name. However, the same civil rights should be afforded to ALL citizens. If the argument is that "gay marriage will degrade the sanctity of it" - well, that's just silly. Heterosexuals do not need gays to do that. Divorce and cheating and all sorts of non-homo things degrade marriage. I don't see how letting two gay people get "married" will have ANY effect on someone else's.

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Coolwhip wrote:

I always forget that christians tend to 'prove' things by quoting the bible rather than using logic.

Is this logical?: Animals do not possess the power of reason - most humans do"!

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mismi40 wrote:

having homosexual tendencies

what the heck is that? Women with big hair?

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The whole women being made in the image of god argument is also completely open to interpretation. God made adam (man) in his image. It does not say that he made women in his image. He made woman of man. Of course you can reason and argue and all to support either side.

Once again, it's all a matter of what someone wants to believe - not what actually is.

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What it boils down to - IMO - is that you are right. No one should look down on any other person. The fact is that we are all different. We have our own views, thoughts and beliefs. Our tendency when someone doesn't believe like we do is to rant about how wrong they are. Or to make them feel small and insignificant. These things are wrong. We should consider each other better than ourselves and serve each other with love and kindness regardless of what we believe. Is it hard? Hell yes. Can hardly do it for tripping over our own arrogance. Should we keep trying even when we screw up. You betcha.

Just because I don't believe homosexuals are right in their actions does not mean I treat them differently. I don't believe they should marry either. But if it became a law and they did I would do my best to love them as I should. We live in this world. But that doesn't mean I have to believe the same way as anyone. I think all would agree to that. We stand up for what we believe in - no matter what it is. The powers that be - our government - and I suppose in this case the majority - determine what becomes law. I only have so much control over that...as much as you. You believe it...do something about it.

All I am saying is...no body behaves the way they should all of the time. Sometimes we just have to agree to disagree. Is that watered down? Should I be so vehement in my own beliefs I am unkind or use hate to sway? Not at all. I will choose to love - because it is how my ultimate example lived his short life. Loving others. I hope I continue to try to do it well...but it is an imperfect world my hopes for "world peace" will probably never come to be. Just because we cannot make people control their emotions to things they are afraid of...but - what they do not understand is that perfect love casts out fear.

1 John 4:18
18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

I know what I believe and I believe that God is in control of the universe. This is why I can proclaim what I believe to be true and do my best to love those who disagree with me. My problem is some folks do make me mad...and I screw up and become mean. That is not how I want to be...but it is part of my human nature to mess up. As it is for others. Wish it were different...one day it will be.

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So why exactly should homos not be allowed to marry ? I guess I don't understand the big deal...

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USAFHokie80 wrote:

The whole women being made in the image of god argument is also completely open to interpretation. God made adam (man) in his image. It does not say that he made women in his image. He made woman of man. Of course you can reason and argue and all to support either side.

Once again, it's all a matter of what someone wants to believe - not what actually is.

Man being made in God's image does not refer to physical characteristics, but rather to the personal attributes of love, justice, wisdom, power (intellectual and physical), and free will.

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USAFHokie80 wrote:

So why exactly should homos not be allowed to marry ? I guess I don't understand the big deal...

For exactly the reason you said. My interpretation of the Bible. Now your question should be - is my interpretation of the Bible correct? That I cannot tell you...all I can tell you is that because made man in His own image that we can fellowship with him...after Christ died, was resurrected and returned to heaven he left believers with the Holy Spirit. The Spirit and the original manuscripts (English Standard Version seems to be the closest translation) are how we interpret God's Word. It is my belief...and I do believe the Bible supports it. As you say - there are many interpretations and many do use the Bible to support their own beliefs wrongly. What can be done about that? Nothing - not really. We all just do the best we can.

I study scripture - I love the Bible. It is a source of inspiration - creatively for me. It helps me when I am lonely, sad, angry - whatever. I love the Word of God. It is beautiful. I know when people read the thing Christians say that they are dubious. Why wouldn't they be? It is in fact an amazing, unreal thing. I will say - how my life has come to be as it is...is not any wierd bright lights or fainting spells. It is reading the Word and my own mind which I do believe to be guided by the Holy Spirit. They are quiet thoughts and simple revelations that lead me from one thing to another. I am not a big believer in the slapping the forhead and healing. I do believe in miracles. I can't prove any of it. Do I ask you to believe me? Well yes...I would hope you would think my heart was true in it's quest for God. But I don't expect you to. I can't worry about what you think of me. I can only do what I believe to be right. You have to find your own way! But I can respect and listen to you and encourage you in whatever it is you seek.

People can use anything they want to support their claims. How do they live their life? Do you believe them? If what they say and what they do aren't jiving then you should question them. I am sure I will get called out many more times for discrepancies in my speech and behavior - and I should be. It makes me better - it is a light that shines on me and shows me for what I really am. I do not like it...but it is inevitable. I am not perfect.

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If you really wonder what the Bible says about it - then read it. My telling you where to find it and what my thoughts on it are not going to give you the answer you are looking for - only my interpretation of it as you say. Look for yourself and believe what you will.

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I guess my question is why is the bible used to prevent people from marriage? Why should the bible be used to bar people from governmentally given, civil rights ?

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USAFHokie80 wrote:

Linkat wrote:
mismi40 wrote:
Coolwhip wrote:
I wonder how christians explain all the gay animals out there, because there are a lot. Can animals sin? Do they end up in, say, doggie hell?

Cool Whip..doggies eat doodoo sometimes too...not something we humans would do. Not a good argument!

Animals are also not made in God's imagine. Completely different concept.

Neither are women.

I guess it depends if you consider man or mankind.

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You are being closed minded in that you would not even consider or listen to a Christian viewpoint. I'm simply saying being "right" whichever the "right" side is will not convince some one. Listening to them and working with them and experiencing them personally allows you to understand where that person is coming from - you can still disagree, but you simply say this biased or bigoted. Open your heart even if you don't agree and try to understand where some one with a difference of opinion comes from - only then will understanding happen on both sides.

On another thread I wrote about a documentary called blue eyed where white children got to experience bigotry - only then can you fully understand what it is like.

I don't fully agree with this, but understand - the thought is those against gay marriage say yes gays have the same rights they can marry just like straight people - both can marry those of the opposite sex so there is no denying of rights. Also, many that oppose marrying of same sex do support a proponent to have civil unions as long as if a church does not believe in gay marriages; they do not have to marry a same sex couple. Only the very extremes do not support this at all. I think it is more the marriage word that bothers most conservatives - marriage to them is between a man and woman whereas a civil union could be between two same sex couples. To me Bush is a more extreme conservative so it doesn't surprise me he would not support this.

Mismi40 - I think we agree on the love of the Bible - I also love it intellectually - I love reading the various interpretations and how one comes up with them. Its interesting all the different possibilities and different thoughts processes. I sometimes wonder and feel it was intentionally written in this way - one to cover appeal for all sorts of people and two in sense it keeps the Book alive - whether you believe in it or not - it certainly even makes non-believers discuss it.

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The Christian view point is only relavant to a Christian. I don't need to understand it to form my opinion on gay marriage. What we commonly associate marriage with has many roots in pagan cerimonies. Let's not forget that Gay Marriage is older than christianity itself. If anyone has altered it's definition it's not the gays.

T
K
O

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Homosexuality v. Divorce - Sin is sin, isn't it?

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