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Down with the Ten Commandments.

 
 
au1929
 
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2003 02:44 pm
Ten Commandment challenges spread

Disputes have arisen in 14 states. Many rulings go against the displays.

By Warren Richey | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

Some 3,300 years after Moses descended from Mount Sinai, a debate over the Ten Commandments is raging in towns and cities across America. From Cambridge, Mass., to Montgomery, Ala., to Everett, Wash., state and local officials are scrambling to defend the placement of the Ten Commandments in government buildings or on public land.
In some cases, monuments and plaques depicting the Ten Commandments have been on display for decades. But now their placement on government property is increasingly being challenged by groups who say such displays violate the US Constitution's mandated separation between church and state. "The rulings are now mostly against the Ten Commandments. The tide has turned," says Annie Laurie Gaylor of the Freedom From Religion Foundation in Madison, Wis.
The disputes are part of a larger national debate over how much entanglement of religion and government the Constitution permits, including questions about the inclusion of the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance.
"This is a culture war," says Edward White, a lawyer with the Thomas More Law Center in Ann Arbor, Mich. "You have certain groups who are trying to secularize this country and stamp out every image of our Judeo-Christian heritage. The fight is being fought everywhere."
The most closely watched dispute is unfolding in Alabama, where the state's chief justice, Roy Moore, installed a 2-1/2-ton stone monument of the Decalogue in the rotunda of the justice building two years ago. A federal judge and a federal appeals-court panel have both ruled that the display amounts to an unconstitutional endorsement of religion by the government.
Chief Justice Moore has been ordered to remove the display within the next two weeks. Moore's supporters are warning that they are prepared to engage in civil disobedience to prevent the removal.
Although it has received the lion's share of press coverage, the Montgomery dispute is just one of numerous Ten Commandments cases. Similar disputes are under way in Arizona, Georgia, Indiana, Kansas, Maryland, Massachusetts, Montana, Nebraska, Pennsylvania, Texas, Utah, Washington, and Wisconsin. Many receive only local press coverage.

Complete article see:
http://csmonitor.com/2003/0804/p01s01-uspo.html

I believe in the separation of church and state. But I also believe that the forced removal of plaques that represent the Ten commandments Is overkill. What is your opinion should they be removed from public buildings?
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Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2003 03:03 pm
Re: Down with the Ten Commandments.
Quote:

"This is a culture war," says Edward White, a lawyer with the Thomas More Law Center in Ann Arbor, Mich. "You have certain groups who are trying to secularize this country and stamp out every image of our Judeo-Christian heritage. The fight is being fought everywhere."


Interesting that anyone in this day and age still speaks of "our Judeo-Christian heritage" as though it's something we all share. Or ever shared since Day 1 of the Puritans in New England. They were very strict about religious practice: No Quakers, no free-thinking Christians, no Indians. As for the Judeo part of the equation, I don't even think the powers-that-be gave them a second thought back then. The Jews were irrelevant.

I guess the forgoing screed gives an idea of how I feel on the subject of 10 Commandments in public spaces. Against it...
0 Replies
 
Olen
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2003 03:04 pm
The Ten Commandmenes are a good guide by which to live, regardless of a person's religion.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2003 03:21 pm
some are, some aren't
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Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2003 03:22 pm
Most religions have at least a few good lessons we could all benefit from. It's the picking and choosing the ones to engrave in stone that gets complicated...
0 Replies
 
Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2003 03:47 pm
Why should courthouse decor be limited to Judeo-Christian ethical wallpaper? We could add uplifting words from many American sub-cultures.

But before spending the money for more plaques, consider who is going to benefit from posting moral precepts in the courtroom.

Are the guilty defendents going to read "Thou shalt not...." and reform?

Will the lawyers and judges and social workers and court stenographers be inspired to greater wisdom?

Will the innocent take heart and have their spirits uplifted?

Who benefits--besides the banner wavers?
0 Replies
 
Mapleleaf
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2003 03:47 pm
I live in the South. In 1980, when I organized groups, especially in the rural areas, folks prayed before a meeting of almost any kind. For me, the issue was not whether it was right or not; after all, I was stepping into their world. My job was to develop a trust level with the members of the community, so that we could solve problems together.

I did not feel comfortable with most of the churches, but I recognized the importance of them within the community. In fact, the best way for me to spread a message was to get word to all the churches, white, black and green.

Do I believe in separation of church and state? Emphatically yes!
Should something be done about the Alabama situation? Yes! How to do it is the tuff question.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2003 04:00 pm
The ten Commandments although part of the Judeo Christian tradition can relate to any religion.And any code of conduct.


1. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. ...
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. ...
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. ...
5. Honor thy father and thy mother.
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.
0 Replies
 
Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2003 04:03 pm
An atheist, for instance, might have trouble with No. 1...
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2003 04:05 pm
Olen wrote:
The Ten Commandmenes are a good guide by which to live, regardless of a person's religion.


And are you saying "Who gives a damn about people with no religion?"
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2003 04:06 pm
D'artagnan wrote:
An atheist, for instance, might have trouble with No. 1...


I'm an agnstic -- and I have lots of trouble with #1.
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Olen
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2003 04:11 pm
Frank: I didn't say that. With no religion, a person can still try to be good. We must live among people.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2003 04:13 pm
au1929 wrote:
The ten Commandments although part of the Judeo Christian tradition can relate to any religion.And any code of conduct.


1. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.



How on earth can that relate to ANY GOD? It demands that the speaker be acknowledged as God -- and that no other Gods may be elevated to that God's level.


And what does that say to an agnostic or an atheist?


Quote:
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. ...



Does that mean we'd have to get rid of the Lincoln Memorial?



Quote:
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. ...


Huh??? What if I do not have a Lord thy God?


Quote:
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. ...


And what day would that be?


Quote:
5. Honor thy father and thy mother.
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.



For this you need a God?


Quote:
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.


Come on. Get serious!
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2003 04:37 pm
Frank
Where in the ten commandments do you see a particular religion or God noted? They can pertain to any religion. The only objection may come from atheists. and possibly agnostics.
0 Replies
 
fealola
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2003 04:46 pm
au1929 wrote:
Frank
Where in the ten commandments do you see a particular religion or God noted? They can pertain to any religion. The only objection may come from atheists. and possibly agnostics.


Well, that would leave out an awful lot of people.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2003 04:49 pm
6
7
8
9
are well reasoned, the rest are arbitrary and capricious
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2003 04:57 pm
I wonder how many agnostics and athiests would actually object to the ten comandments being in public buildings. I would tend to believe that agnostics since they are unsure would not be bothered by it. As for athiests I would suppose only the most strident would care.[Only guessing}
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2003 05:39 pm
i dont think i am strident but yes i do object
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2003 05:48 pm
au1929 wrote:
Frank
Where in the ten commandments do you see a particular religion or God noted? They can pertain to any religion. The only objection may come from atheists. and possibly agnostics.



That simply is not correct, au.

The very first "commandment" (all of which come from a particular god) says:

"I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. "

How can you possibly think that applies to any god or any religion? Do you know of any Hindu gods who feel that way?
0 Replies
 
Olen
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2003 05:51 pm
It seems that most of the posts are concerning how others feel about the Ten Commandments. Lets allow them think the way they do, and we can do the same, and leave the whole thing alone.
0 Replies
 
 

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