traditonal/modern English.

"It is I," is grammatically correct.

"It's me," is not.

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Yoong Liat,

There are two attitudes to "grammar".

1. The prescriptive view in which grammar is seen as the rules which speakers should follow. (the Noddy 24 answer)

2, The descriptive view (after Chomsky et al) in which grammar is seen as the (local) rules which describe what "native speakers" actually do.

According to 2, for example, phrases like "ain't not got none" are deemed "grammatical" provided they are used consistently in a particular idiolect. (Compare for example with "ne..pas" in French which is a standarized double negative).

In schools the phrase "appropriate English" (following 2) according to context, has to a large extent replaced "correct English" (as in 1) which was pedagogically rooted in teaching Latin grammar. In this respect "it's me" is fine, whereas "it is I" would now be considered supercilious or snobbish.

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According to modern English, it is "It's me." But according to traditional English, "It's I" is fine.

What I wanted to know is, is 'traditional English' the opposite of 'modern English'?

My apologies for being not clear in my question.

Thanks.

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Yoong Liat wrote:

According to modern English, it is "It's me." But according to traditional English, "It's I" is fine.

What I wanted to know is, is 'traditional English' the opposite of 'modern English'?

My apologies for being not clear in my question.

Thanks.

No. Traditional English (and where one decides English was "traditional" would be an argument that would never be decided) is simply English as it was spoken some time before current times.

English simply changes over time.......always has, always will.

Technically, "It's I" is still the correct form, since the grammatical rule in English is that nominative follows the verb to be.

Most people no longer know that, and so "it's me" sounds correct to most of us. The correct form probably sounds strange to most people, and you might easily be told it is wrong by native speakers who do not know grammar, and think "it's me" is correct.

Sooner or later, it will be. I suspect "nominative after the verb to be" is a disappearing rule.

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They are not "opposites". There are many varieties of "English" for different contexts. The division traditional/modern is too simple.
(As a point of interest I last remember "It is I" in the children's story "The Three Billy Goats Gruff")

EDIT Dlowan pipped me to the post !

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If you want to sound dramatic and theatrical, I suggest you use 'It is I'. :wink:

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fresco wrote:

They are not "opposites". There are many varieties of "English" for different contexts. The division traditional/modern is too simple.
(As a point of interest I last remember "It is I" in the children's story "The Three Billy Goats Gruff")

EDIT Dlowan pipped me to the post !

Lol!

I only knew it is nominative after the verb to be in English when my German teacher screamed at me for getting it wrong in German. "It's the SAME BLOODY RULE IN ENGLISH!" he screamed.

And I am old enough to have been taught English grammar in primary school. Just never took it in.

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Coolwhip wrote:

If you want to sound dramatic and theatrical, I suggest you use 'It is I'. :wink:

Like the lady who was accused of being overly pedantic and answered:

"Whom? I?!"

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Personally, when asked if I am available after I've picked up the telephone, I answer, "Speaking."

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It's I. (traditional English)
It's me. (modern English)

Or should I say that according to a traditional rule, it should be "It's I" and according to modern English, "It's me"?

I'm confused by the terms 'traditional' and 'modern'.

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I don't know where you got the terms from. They don't mean anything to me.

Some modern English is traditional, and some traditional English is modern.

I'm more inclined to see a distinction between formal and informal English. I make this distinction as conversational (It's me) vs. written (It's I). But that's just my perspective. Nothing official about it.

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Yoong Liat wrote:

It's I. (traditional English)
It's me. (modern English)

Or should I say that according to a traditional rule, it should be "It's I" and according to modern English, "It's me"?

I'm confused by the terms 'traditional' and 'modern'.

To try and help, Yoong Liat, can we begin with what you understand the terms "traditional" and "modern" to mean?

I don't think we (or at least I) quite understand the problem you want help with yet.

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1. The man who you spoke to this morning is my father.

Nowadays it's correct to use 'who' in the above sentence.

However, many years ago, it should be:
The man whom you spoke to this morning is my father.

Sentence 1 is the modern English equivalent of sentence 2.
Is modern English correctly used here? If so, can I say that sentence 2 is the traditional English version?

I hope my question is clearer now.

Many thanks.

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You can certainly say that the second sentence is "Traditional English" if you're meaning that it's grammatically correct and no longer widely used, especially in conversations.

Written and verbal English often differ in that written English is more formal.

I use what you're calling "Modern English" even though I am aware it is grammatically incorrect.

As to whether it's 'correct' to use it, that's up to each speaker.

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Mame wrote:

You can certainly say that the second sentence is "Traditional English" if you're meaning that it's grammatically correct and no longer widely used, especially in conversations.

Written and verbal English often differ in that written English is more formal.

I use what you're calling "Modern English" even though I am aware it is grammatically incorrect.

As to whether it's 'correct' to use it, that's up to each speaker.

I believe my question is finally clear, and that the terms 'traditonal' and 'modern' in respect of English usage are fine.

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The central point is that language usage cannot be divorced from social context. This is why non-native speakers can be conspicuous. I understand that the major stumbling block to Westerner's fluency in Japanese is poor comprehension of social context.

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Yoong Liat wrote:

1. The man who you spoke to this morning is my father.

Nowadays it's correct to use 'who' in the above sentence.

However, many years ago, it should be:
The man whom you spoke to this morning is my father.

Sentence 1 is the modern English equivalent of sentence 2.
Is modern English correctly used here? If so, can I say that sentence 2 is the traditional English version?

I hope my question is clearer now.

Many thanks.

I have a nit to pick. It is NOT CORRECT to use "who" in the sentence. Common usage? Yes. Right? No.

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I'm with Roberta.

Personally, I'd much rather be considered formal and stuffy than grammatically incorrect.

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Don't you guys say things like, "Who're you going with?"?

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traditonal/modern English.

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