Quote:
ebrown wrote:
... if you by "laying aside your desires" you mean that I am willing to deny myself a pleasure I would enjoy.
If by "laying aside your desires" you mean something akin to a lobotomy... where I would excise the desires that are part of being human, then I disagree.
I am faithful to my wife because I love her-- not because I no longer have the desire for more sex. The fact that she is faithful to me-- even though she has the opportunity to be with others-- means all the more.
Being married to a robot-- who was unable to hurt me, wouldn't mean nearly as much.
Love only has meaning if it is a choice. Without the ability to be unfaithful, faithfulness means nothing.
Is physical faithfulness the only thing that matters?
If you are physically faithful, but always considering the possibility of being unfaithful, are you really faithful?
Isn't true faithfulness when you won't even entertain the idea of unfaithfulness?
You are missing the point... it is the love that matters (the faithfulness is just one example of this).
Love is only love when it is a choice.
If you are forced to love... and have no other options, it isn't love. Love without free will (i.e. the ability to not love) is programming.
That is the way you feel until you get cheated on. Or until you or someone else causes you pain. Love is imperfect. It is suppose to be as we spoke of before, kind and unselfish. But here on earth our love hurts others all the time. My husband loves me. But he hurts me in the midst of his love all the time....just as I hurt him. That is not the way it would be in heaven...it is totally unselfish totally kind, totally thinking of the other persons well-being. Sin would have no place in that atmosphere. God wills it and we will be changed...I cannot explain it - but it is a perfect place.
And Hell is seperation from that - it is not knowing one ounce of the goodness of God. You know that here...whether you believe it or not...if there is any good in any of us - it is because God allows it to be there...all else is selfish ambition - that makes itself look like love - a type of closet narcissism that makes others believe we are really caring people, when we are just sometimes trying to make ourselves feel better. There are amazing moments of unselfish, uninhibited godly love - but they are a lot rarer than we think.
All that to say is that when we are in heaven ...we will be truly content and we will know true love...where we are now that seems ethereal and uncomprehendable - because we do not understand that kind of love at all. As matter of fact - it is so foreign to us we would rather have the painful love we give to the ones we love best because it is all we know and understand - and it is great but it is only a small remnant of what God has to offer us in heaven when we accept the gift he offers.
Let me put it this way. I don't know if you are married, but for the sake of this example you are.
Your wife (as a human being) has temptations (just as you do) and sometimes desires people other than you. Assuming you have a good marriage, she acknowledges this as you do and has made a strong commitment to never be unfaithful in spite of the existence of temptation. You love her in spite of the fact that you know she is subject to temptation.
Now let's say science invents a drug... a kind of medical chastity belt... that would make it physically impossible for her to be unfaithful, and mentally impossible for her to even experience temptation.
Let's go further and say that this drug would increase her devotion to you to the point it would be impossible for her to do anything other than to please you, and that she would be unable to do anything for herself until she had met all of your needs first.
Would you force your wife to take this drug?
Would you want her to?
Don't you think the knowledge that her devotion was not a choice, that she had to act that way, take away the meaning?
I can imagine that God would want to take my choice to be devoted to Him.
If you accept the love of God - then you would love because you wanted to...not because you were made to...that gift offers a world of love we can never know until we are with our heavenly Father...it would not be programmed but it would come from a heart that had been made whole- not one that had been transplanted by a machine...
Yes mismi, and this would be a continual process. It would continue to be a choice meaning that we continue with the ability to sin at any time.
I don't believe that accepting God's love will ever turn us into machines.
It wouldn't make us machines...we would be incapable of sin...just as God is incapable of sin...because we would be all good...no evil. His perfect love in that perfect domain would cast it out. You would choose to love - but it would not be with the imperfect love we know now.
Well Mismi, would you ask your husband to take the pill that would make him incapable of sin?
ebrown_p wrote:Quote:
ebrown wrote:
... if you by "laying aside your desires" you mean that I am willing to deny myself a pleasure I would enjoy.
If by "laying aside your desires" you mean something akin to a lobotomy... where I would excise the desires that are part of being human, then I disagree.
I am faithful to my wife because I love her-- not because I no longer have the desire for more sex. The fact that she is faithful to me-- even though she has the opportunity to be with others-- means all the more.
Being married to a robot-- who was unable to hurt me, wouldn't mean nearly as much.
Love only has meaning if it is a choice. Without the ability to be unfaithful, faithfulness means nothing.
Is physical faithfulness the only thing that matters?
If you are physically faithful, but always considering the possibility of being unfaithful, are you really faithful?
Isn't true faithfulness when you won't even entertain the idea of unfaithfulness?
You are missing the point... it is the love that matters (the faithfulness is just one example of this).
Love is only love when it is a choice.
If you are forced to love... and have no other options, it isn't love. Love without free will (i.e. the ability to not love) is programming.
Would you teach your children that they should always leave open the option of hurting someone as one of their choices?
ebrown_p wrote:It won't be you that is in heaven... it will only be a shell of the former you.
You know, that very much describes my understanding of what goes to heaven. The shell of the human, or at least, less than the whole person.
Quote:
Would you teach your children that they should always leave open the option of hurting someone as one of their choices?
Teaching kids to do what is right... is very different then brainwashing them to make them incapable of doing wrong.
My kids retain their own free will even though I tell them what (I think) they should do. I want them to do what is right... but by choice. I far prefer kids with the ability to make their own decisions (who sometimes mess up), to robots who perfectly do whatever I tell them.
God is a father... I suspect he feels the same way.
ebrown_p wrote:Quote:
Would you teach your children that they should always leave open the option of hurting someone as one of their choices?
Teaching kids to do what is right... is very different then brainwashing them to make them incapable of doing wrong.
My kids retain their own free will even though I tell them what (I think) they should do. I want them to do what is right... but by choice. I far prefer kids with the ability to make their own decisions (who sometimes mess up), to robots who perfectly do whatever I tell them.
God is a father... I suspect he feels the same way.
You didn't answer the question. Should we teach children to always leave their options open so that they may harm someone if they wish?
The answer to your rhetorical question is obviously "no".
However, it is irrelevant. Teaching someone does not take away their free will.
ebrown_p wrote:Well Mismi, would you ask your husband to take the pill that would make him incapable of sin?
He already has! :wink: I just can't see the actual results yet. We are both believers...we know that one day we will love each other the way we should, not the way we do. What we do is the best we can...but it is still painful and not satisfying sometimes. God has given us glimpses of that kind of love at times...and one day we will know it all the time...
I don't buy it Mismi. Faith is not a fix it all pill, and faith does not make you or your husband perfect. If you love your husband, you him as he is now (and as God loves him)... as an imperfect person.
What is beautiful and powerful about love is that it is a choice and it is a risk.
My wife doesn't have to love me... she chose to love me in spite of my flaws. As I am far from perfect, I screw up in many ways.
Not only this, but loving me is a risk. I have promised that I will be faithful, but there are many people who cheat on their spouses. Loving a perfect person is easy. Loving an imperfect person means taking the risk that you might get hurt.
My wife is very attractive and has many opportunities that don't involve me. There are temptations, yet she continues to choose (and choose is the important idea here) to be exclusively with me.
If my wife has no choice... then it is meaningless-- and it is the risk and that makes it so wonderful.
The greatest example of this, of course, is the example of Christ on the Cross. This is the most powerful story of love... and I don't believe that He had to go through with this. It was His choice.
The story of Christ on the Cross requires that I have sin and temptation-- because it is the fact that God loves imperfect man that makes the sacrifice such a powerful example of love.
God made the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, and God made the serpent who offered it to us. If we hadn't eaten of it, there would be no cross, no forgiveness and no blood of Christ.
I believe God thinks it was worth it.
It will one day ebrown....I see what you are saying - would have thought the same thing at one point in my life - and of course you say it very eloquently. But...." I know Whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day" 2Tim. 1:12
Mismi,
If God told you that your husband was never going to change... that he would be exactly the same imperfect person for eternity that he is now... would you still love him?
ebrown said "The greatest example of this, of course, is the example of Christ on the Cross. This is the most powerful story of love... and I don't believe that He had to go through with this. It was His choice.
The story of Christ on the Cross requires that I have sin and temptation-- because it is the fact that God loves imperfect man that makes the sacrifice such a powerful example of love.
God made the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, and God made the serpent who offered it to us. If we hadn't eaten of it, there would be no cross, no forgiveness and no blood of Christ.
I believe God thinks it was worth it."
Wow...in reading this ebrown..you have completely and totally said exactly what I was saying the entire time...We are imperfect now on the earth that sin has entered through the garden of Eden. We are sinful and yet God loved us enough to send his son to die - now Christ loved us enough to do it - he didn't have to do it - you are exactly right - but he did! Now whether we actually believe that He did it because we needed to be saved is the question. And here is where we apparently part agreeing.
If you love your sin and are not shamed by it, If you want to continue in sin - then you are not ready to accept this gift of eternal life in Heaven. That is why you love your human nature so much. When you realize how very horrid your sin is - when you are backed against the wall at how very base and disgusting we as human kind are - you will see a need for a Savior...and you will be ready to see that gift of love that is given. The more I read scripture the more I want to be like Christ...I want to have love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness and self control (Gal. 5:22, 23) and I want eternal life where I am being all these things all the time. I know...it sounds boring and too goody goody for most folks...but I love to laugh..I love people and I love that we can love each other in spite of our differences and our sin...but I do want to know that one day I will be all I have read in Scripture...I long to be better...and I know I will be - in the Heaven we have discussed so very much...
And honestly...though I want all people to know the joy that Heaven will bring...if they think that it is not true...and that they would rather have their earthly existence then so be it. Once again...we believe what we want to believe. I do however have a responsibility to you as a fellow dweller here on earth...and that is to share how to obtain that gift. Whether you accept it or not is totally up to you. I will be sad if you do not accept it...but I will not think less of you. I will not condemn you...but I will always offer it up to you..because I believe wholeheartedly in my God and His Word.
ebrown_p wrote:Mismi,
If God told you that your husband was never going to change... that he would be exactly the same imperfect person for eternity that he is now... would you still love him?
No...I would rather die. I love my husband...I love my kids and my Mom and my Dad and my friends...but life is too painful to want to live as I am forever. I would rather be dirt. But I dont' have to worry about that... :wink:
I would like to say I would love him as he is - forever. And as long as he makes me laugh like he does he has a good chance. But I do not trust my own will. If I am imperfect...I just can't love him well...keep on loving him well...I am pretty sure I would get tired. But that really has no bearing on what I know. If what I believe is not true...then it doesn't matter. But it is...and it does.
ebrown_p wrote:The answer to your rhetorical question is obviously "no".
However, it is irrelevant. Teaching someone does not take away their free will.
So, you want your children to have fewer options than people in Heaven.
You want people in Heaven to hold open the option to harm others if they wish to do so.
But you would teach your children on earth NOT to have that as an option.
That is why I say you don't get it. You apparently have a double standard.
No Real Life...
I want the same thing for my kids in Heaven that I want for them on Earth.
God gives us free will... we have an understanding what what is right or wrong (thanks to the gift of the serpent) and we have the ability to choose. This ability to understand and choose between right and wrong is the very thing that makes us human.
I love my kids I teach them to do what is right and I hope they listen to most of what I teach them (although I understand I am not perfect). But I don't want my kids to be robots. Rather, I want them to have the free will to make the choice by themself.
God gives us free will. I want my kids to have free will. Whether this is in heaven or on Earth doesn't make any difference.
