Mysteries to me

I guess it is good to know echi is not a meany...I think I was called a liar!
Thanks CoastalRat...the peacemaker!

I don't think ebrown is a meany at all!

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CoastalRat wrote:

Naw, they aren't meanies Mismi. They just strongly disagree and are quick to make it known. But e_brown is not mean. Oh, and neither is echi. They just have strong opinions.

Hey, thanks CR. I was kinda mean to you once. You may not remember, and I didn't really appreciate it until I did it. Anyway, I offer a very belated apology.
Still, you are correct that I strongly disagree!

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mismi40 wrote:

I guess it is good to know echi is not a meany...I think I was called a liar!

Yes, I think you were lying. I guess it is harsh, but it is my honest opinion.

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I guess that is a good point echi. But honestly...in my own human thought - and as you can see - it's no great thing - I often think it would have been easier to do something else. I do not understand why God does things the way He does...but He is God - He can do as he pleases. I cannot explain it and no, it doesn't always make sense to me...but I will say that I do not major on the things that don't really matter - not to me anyway. What I do know is that at one point in my life I was lost and confused and had no purpose. When I understood that God loves me and gave his life for me...and that I could accept that gift of being freed from my sin, something changed in me. I am not perfect - I fall away and stumble in my faith often. There have been times that I have thought that I was wrong - God is not real - but amazingly enough...I am always compelled back to my beliefs. They run strong and deep. I hate that I can't prove to you what I think I know ( :wink: ) because I do believe it - with my whole heart...

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ebrown_p wrote:

Satan was never in the Garden of Eden (read your Bible again if you think he was).

It was the Serpant who gets the credit humanity to Adam and Eve. Before they were given this gift of understanding, Adam and Eve were shell, just animated pile of dust. After they ate of the fruit they gained all of the traits that make human beings so wonderful and so unique.

Think through history... sure sin has brought us war and hatred and anger-- but what would humanity be without the struggle, the ability to overcome adversity and the ability to choose (yes choose) to do good in the face of evil.

Without sin there is no poetry as there is no pain and there is self-sacrifice (which needs free will).

Without the ability to be unfaithful, a love that leads to life-long faithfulness is meaningless.

Without the ability to sin, there would be no need for Martin Luther King, there would be no Ghandi and no Corrie Ten Boom or Oskar Schindler. Without sin there is no Jesus.

Saying the serpant behind the greatest gift humanity has ever received is the same as Satan is a grave injustice.

After all, God created the bodies of human beings... it was the serpant who gave them their humanity.

Revelation 12:9 refers to Satan as the original serpent.

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echi wrote:

CoastalRat wrote:
Naw, they aren't meanies Mismi. They just strongly disagree and are quick to make it known. But e_brown is not mean. Oh, and neither is echi. They just have strong opinions.
Hey, thanks CR. I was kinda mean to you once. You may not remember, and I didn't really appreciate it until I did it. Anyway, I offer a very belated apology.
Still, you are correct that I strongly disagree!

You were? Well, apology accepted. Sometimes I think we all write something in the heat of a discussion that we really don't mean. I think most of us on here are good people and would probably like each other were we to meet in person. We just have different beliefs which we enjoy debating.

As to your comment about my believing something I don't think makes sense (and I may not have said exactly what I meant when I said that), let me ask you something. If you sit and listen to a person talking about the science behind genetic engineering (or some other topic that you have no knowledge of), you may well be convinced that genetic engineering is possible and yet still claim that you don't understand it nor does it make sense to you. So what is different about claiming I don't fully understand how things will be in heaven?

Anyway, take care.

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CoastalRat wrote:

As to your comment about my believing something I don't think makes sense (and I may not have said exactly what I meant when I said that), let me ask you something...

uh-oh

Quote:

If you sit and listen to a person talking about the science behind genetic engineering (or some other topic that you have no knowledge of), you may well be convinced that genetic engineering is possible and yet still claim that you don't understand it nor does it make sense to you. So what is different about claiming I don't fully understand how things will be in heaven?

Anyway, take care.

I don't believe something just because it may be popular among scientists. I am very skeptical of String Theory, Quantum Theory, even the Big Bang, quite possibly because I have insufficient knowledge. Genetic engineering is not something I need to "believe in" because it is explainable and has been demonstrated. I may not have all the knowledge of a genetic engineer, but I understand the reason behind the method.

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Genesis 3 wrote:

Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

(.... snip for space)

So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.

And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."

It is clear that the serpant in this story was a serpant. In fact, God punishes all future snakes-- which only makes sense if the serpant was a literal serpant.

Revelation 12 wrote:

There is nothing that connects this "dragon" with the events in the Garden of Eden-- except for one word. Quite the contrary the reaction of God to the serpant in is equivalent to the reaction he has to Adam and Eve. The dragon in Revelations is God's bitter enemy, presumably from long before the even in Eden took place.

These are quite clearly unrelated passages-- very different in tone and meaning.

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mismi40 wrote:

I guess that is a good point echi. But honestly...in my own human thought - and as you can see - it's no great thing -

Don't be so hard on yourself; that's MY job!

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...I often think it would have been easier to do something else.

You may be right. The fact that something is difficult does not make it noble or correct.

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I do not understand why God does things the way He does...but He is God - He can do as he pleases. I cannot explain it and no, it doesn't always make sense to me...but I will say that I do not major on the things that don't really matter - not to me anyway. What I do know is that at one point in my life I was lost and confused and had no purpose.

Been there.

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When I understood that God loves me and gave his life for me...and that I could accept that gift of being freed from my sin, something changed in me.

What do you mean you "understood"? How can you understand something that doesn't make sense?

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I am not perfect - I fall away and stumble in my faith often.

How do you define "faith"?

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There have been times that I have thought that I was wrong - God is not real - but amazingly enough...I am always compelled back to my beliefs. They run strong and deep.

Just because a belief is strong and deep does not mean it is more likely to be true.

Quote:

I hate that I can't prove to you what I think I know ( :wink: ) because I do believe it - with my whole heart...

Do you think God is convinced? Mr. Green

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You guys are exhausting - I believe what I believe and you are just way too smart...and I am way too tired to keep this up - lovely speaking with you.....may seriously think about your questions and statements tomorrow and come back with both barrells loaded...maybe. :wink:

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No one answered my main point...

It would not be a good thing if Adam and Eve hadn't eaten of the forbidden fruit. This relates to the question of the original post of whether we can sin in heaven.

Being human is about being able to choose between good and evil. Our frailty, our emotion, our passion our ability to be heroic all depend on this.

It is hard to imagine a life where there was no temptation or adversity. Temptation is such a big part of being human that without we would would simply lose our humanity. Without temptation there is no free will and the things that mean so much here-- like faithfulness, or giving of one self would no longer be meaningful acts-- they will be just things that people do.

I imagine (and hope) that in heaven I will be the same person I am here. If I become a perfect automaton with no temptation, no passion, no struggle to be a better person and no chance to choose self-sacrifice-- I will be just a shell of who I really am.

A place that takes away the very things that make us human doesn't sound inviting.

I pray this isn't the case.

What happened after Adam and Eve ate the fruit (from the Genesis account I posted in the last page) was the best thing that could have happened to them. It was at this point they became human.

Because of this, I wonder if the serpent was working for God-- created for this very purpose.

I can't imagine that God, having given us the gift of free will in Eden, would take it away in heaven.

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ebrown_p wrote:

No one answered my main point. . .

Perhaps because no one thought you serious. On the effect of the Edenic rebellion, Paul wrote:
" . . . through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned." (Romans 5:12)

If you seriously believe that 6000 +/- years of war and crime and sickness and death are preferable to the prospects of Genesis 1:28, tell that to the woman whose child has just been blown to bits by a suicide bomber.

That the serpent deserves the title of Satan is evident by the meaning of the word satan = resister.

As far as free will is concerned, Satan, Adam, Eve and all intelligent creation process this quality. Satan (and others) chose to resist. Jesus (and others) have chosen to obey.

I, for one, am certain I may find many worthwhile challenges in a world where I do not have to be constantly looking over my shoulder.

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The root word for Satan is properly translated "accuser" or sometimes "adversary". The translation "resister" doesn't fit, either with the etymology, or with the ancient writings about him.

The earliest Biblical reference to Satan as a character was in the book Job... where Satan is God's opponent in a divine game betting on the result of tragedy on one of God's followers. This is a good example of the "adversary" role.

The serpent in Eden is quite clearly a different character.

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Neo, you don't get it.

If you get eliminate the struggle with temptation in humans... you get eliminate what it means to be human.

You see human existance as "6000+ years of war, sickness and death". Of course, human existance is so much more than this. There is heroism and the struggle to overcome. There are great works of philosophy. There are battles and bravery.

If Adam and Eve hadn't gained the knowledge of good and evil, the entire of human history... would be erase. All of it... every war, every struggle for good, There would be no Revolution (and thus no US). There would be no struggle for human rights. There would be brave stands, no uplifting speaches no courage or striving.

Personally, there would be "compassion"... but there would be no compassion. If there is no temptation, then there is no choice you would act with compassion as a matter of course.

Human beings, with all their frailty are capable of incredible acts of goodness and compassion. Our ability to do great acts of barbarism and evil is part of this. You can't get rid of one without the other.

I can't imagine an existance without temptation-- but I am certain that it wouldn't be a human existance.

I think Human Beings deserve to exist.

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If evil is necessary to provide counterpoint to good, where do you set the balance?

And since God intended man to live forever on earth, how is our present situation in harmony with God's purpose?

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You are indeed a nice man pbrown. I know you have respect for others and obviously love your neighbor. But I also believe that YOU are confused. My prayer is that you will have spiritual understanding. It truly is impossible to make someone who does not have it understand the ways of God. Just as I know I do not have the gift of debate. I have always struggled with logic and am too empathetic at times to bring home my point - I always see the other persons side. My husband smears me in debates and arguments all of the time...totally pisses me off!

In this case however I don't see your side and I could expend scads of time trying to make you see my side but I have family and little ones and just can't spend the time trying to make you understand. I just have to pray that God will give you understanding if it is meant to be that you have it. Some people just don't want it though...I pray you are not one of those people.

And I know debates here are like games to most people - playing devil's advocate and seeing how people respond is probably very entertaining for you all. I get frustrated!

It has been good for me to talk with you all...I have searched scripture and will be talking with my pastor about some of my own questions. My faith is strong and I certainly love God as much as ever and am so thankful to be a believer...I don't know everything and want to be a good student of life and of Scripture though. You have made me think and dig deeper and that is a GOOD thing! Thanks ever so much...

mismi

1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

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mismi40 wrote:

[...]It truly is impossible to make someone who does not have it understand the ways of God. Just as I know I do not have the gift of debate. I have always struggled with logic and am too empathetic at times to bring home my point - I always see the other persons side. My husband smears me in debates and arguments all of the time...

Does your husband have "it", too? Why not invite him to the forum? The more the messier!

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My husband does have "it" - spiritual understanding (good grief :wink: ). He thinks debate is a waste of time...he just likes to get me riled up - He will take the opposite view of me everytime! He would never spend his time trying to convince someone that doesn't really want to understand. He would rather read! I am more optimistic...there is hope that all will come to know God as I do...it is a wonderful thing!

See you all later! Much on my plate today!

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Is that what you're up to then? Trying to convince others that you're right? (In that case I would agree with your husband, as you apparently have no rational argument to make. :wink: )

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Well...let me put it this way - then I am letting it lie...Maybe...you just never know. If I truly believe what I am saying, then how much could I say I was showing the love of God if I did not make my best effort? If I believe that there is a Heaven and a Hell...and if Heaven is living eternity in peace and joy and Hell is an eternity of darkness and misery then shouldn't I try to let others know? Shouldn't I try to make them understand and come to know that there is a way to know you can have that gift? If I didn't believe it, why would I waste my breath (typing) coming here and being harassed? Because it is very obvious I am outwitted here and it seems mostly in the minority.

I read the threads and am totally dumbfounded by the amazing depth of logic and knowledge. But - though I may not be logical or brilliant (I am smart and quite sharp - if I do say so myself) I mostly care about people. I just think if I say I believe something - I should practice it and try to help people understand what I do. If I didn't I would not give a lick what you thought. So that being said - I am not here to offend or debate really. Just to clarify and try to help someone feel the way I do. I love God - I am blessed by him. I want others to know it as well...

Most think that is a bunch of sentimental schmuck...but, well...it is, I guess...I gush about my kids, because I love them so much...why wouldn't it be the same about anything I love?

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