age of consent

agrote wrote:

Yes, I see that. I'm not planning to do anything illegal. If the law were reviewed, then it would need to be based on research into the extent of any damage that might be caused by underage sex.

Why on earth do you think that this research doesn't exist?

We can certainly point you in the right direction but this is why I think seeing a professional would be most helpful for you. In a face-to-face, ongoing conversation, an expert can provide all of the information you are so sorely lacking and convince you of the harm inherent in what you desire. Then you can start figuring out how to deal with that, and where to go next.

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agrote wrote:

sozobe wrote:
The determination as to whether the girl in question will end up enjoying the experience or be damaged by the experience. You seem to be willing to risk it. That's chilling.

The consequences of you making the WRONG determination -- of deciding that she'll enjoy it, and being proven wrong -- are so far beyond the consequences of being taken to a movie that turns out to be boring. Do you see this, at all?

Yes, I see that. I'm not planning to do anything illegal. If the law were reviewed, then it would need to be based on research into the extent of any damage that might be caused by underage sex.

I understand that my own judgement is fallible, and if I were ever to sleep with a young girl I would have to be extremely careful about the consequences for her.

[/color]

The law is not going to be changed because there is research and it says, sex with minors is harmful. The research can actually go so far as to say sex with people in their early twenties is harmful. I think it stops short there because the legal age is 18. A person may not be psychologically ready even then (we are talking brain development).

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fishin wrote:

I don't know how much more of a hint you'd need. It's a site that specifially covers mental health disorders related to depression. Do you honestly think they listed it because it is unrelated?

I can see why it might be related to depression, but I can't see what makes it a mental health disorder in-itself. Yes, I need a bigger hint.

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Roberta wrote:

Here's the link:

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/312/7028/390

As a former 13-year-old girl, you scare me. When I think back to the way I was then, I realize that I knew nothing and thought I knew it all. I'm glad I didn't have to make a decision about having sex when I was still a child.

Thanks for the link. I'm sorry I scare you. Everyone's different; I don't know whether or not you're representative of the average ex-13-year-old girl.

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Re: The DSM-IV

rhachis wrote:

I have the DSM-IV right in front of me. It is the Bible for psychologists and psychiatrists.

Lucky you. Care to read it out?

sozobe wrote:

Why on earth do you think that this research doesn't exist?

I didn't say that. I just don't know the full extent of the findings, or how much more research might need to be done. I don't know how harmful underage sex is. I don't believe that it is too harmful. I could be wrong.

Quote:

In a face-to-face, ongoing conversation, an expert can provide all of the information you are so sorely lacking and convince you of the harm inherent in what you desire. Then you can start figuring out how to deal with that, and where to go next.

An expert what? I don't think I'd know where to look. And I'm reluctant to bother, because I think that my desires are perfectly natural.

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rhachis, I'll have to read the websites you linked me to before I can discuss what you're saying.

I think I should go to bed. I might be back on tomorrow.

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Do you have any intention of acting on these "natural" desires? (Are all "natural" desires OK? If a person has this "natural" desire to murder his family, should we just kinda step back and say "hey, it's natural!" What marks the line between acceptable and unacceptable desires? Couldn't it have something to do with the harm caused by acting on a given desire?)

If your answer to my first question is yes, maybe, or anything but "absolutely not," find that expert. It's worth the bother.

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agrote wrote:

fishin wrote:
I don't know how much more of a hint you'd need. It's a site that specifially covers mental health disorders related to depression. Do you honestly think they listed it because it is unrelated?

I can see why it might be related to depression, but I can't see what makes it a mental health disorder in-itself. Yes, I need a bigger hint.

I suppose you could get hit with a sledge hammer but I suspect you'd pretend that wasn't abig enough hint too! lol

This kind of sexual preference is also regarded within medical circles as a personality disorder, otherwise known as hebephilia or ephebophilia."

http://www.ecpat.net/eng/CSEC/definitions/paedophilia.htm

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sozobe wrote:

Do you have any intention of acting on these "natural" desires?

I'd love to, but I don't think I will. Largely for the fear of getting caught, and largely just because I just don't get the chance to socialise with people of that age, so the chance of me meeting an adolescent girl who likes me are pretty slim.

I would never act on my desires in a violent or coercive way - I must emphasise that, because attraction to underage girls/boys is seen to be associated with molestation or rape. But I just wouldn't do those things.

Quote:

Are all "natural" desires OK?

No... I suppose pathology is natural. Maybe I should have used the word 'healthy'. I think that my desires are healthy.

Quote:

If a person has this "natural" desire to murder his family, should we just kinda step back and say "hey, it's natural!"

That would be unhealthy. And probably learned; I don't think my sexuality is something I have picked up, I think it's probably largely genetic, just as normal homosexuality and heterosexuality are.

"What marks the line between acceptable and unacceptable desires? Couldn't it have something to do with the harm caused by acting on a given desire?"

Of course. And I still don't believe that the harm would be significant.

What marks the line between acceptable and unacceptable desires? Couldn't it have something to do with the harm caused by acting on a given desire?

his family, should we just kinda step back and say "hey, it's natural!" What marks the line between acceptable and unacceptable desires? Couldn't it have something to do with the harm caused by acting on a given desire?)

If your answer to my first question is yes, maybe, or anything but "absolutely not," find that expert. It's worth the bother.[/quote]

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agrote wrote:

I still don't believe that the harm would be significant.

Shouldn't you become better informed before you decide that? You've already shown that there are many things you don't know about the subject, and the links here are just the tip of the iceberg. As one example, you persist in saying things like "I would never act on my desires in a violent or coercive way," while ignoring the points that have been made here about how a child CANNOT consent to sex. There is no way for a 20-year-old to have sex with a 12-year-old that is not coercive. That doesn't necessarily mean kidnapping her parents and insisting that she have sex with you if she ever wants to see you again. That can mean a "courtship" where you get her to the point where she thinks she wants sex -- but, and this is the problem, she is traumatized once it happens. 12-year-olds are simply not able to think things through and give informed consent the way adults are. That's the basis of these laws.

agrote wrote:

I think that my desires are healthy.

Again, what is this based on beyond wishful thinking?

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fishin wrote:

agrote wrote:
fishin wrote:
I don't know how much more of a hint you'd need. It's a site that specifially covers mental health disorders related to depression. Do you honestly think they listed it because it is unrelated?

I can see why it might be related to depression, but I can't see what makes it a mental health disorder in-itself. Yes, I need a bigger hint.

I suppose you could get hit with a sledge hammer but I suspect you'd pretend that wasn't abig enough hint too! lol

This kind of sexual preference is also regarded within medical circles as a personality disorder, otherwise known as hebephilia or ephebophilia."

http://www.ecpat.net/eng/CSEC/definitions/paedophilia.htm

That's a bit more like it. So according to this, I have a personality disorder. I'm taking that with a pinch of salt, partly because the sources are from 1996 and partly because I'm still not convinced that my condition actually causes any problems, apart from problems which would actually go away if it became socially acceptable to be the way I am. So I'm not sure. But you've given me a bit of evidence that suggests it might be pathological, so well done.

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sozobe wrote:

Shouldn't you become better informed before you decide that?

Yep. I have already admitted that a few times. It's partly why I'm here now.

Quote:

"I would never act on my desires in a violent or coercive way," while ignoring the points that have been made here about how a child CANNOT consent to sex. There is no way for a 20-year-old to have sex with a 12-year-old that is not coercive.

Again, I have not ignored these points, I have just argued against them. I disagree with them. Is that allowed? I have argued that minors can consent to sex, and more controversially I have argued that it is not even necessary that they do if it is true that sex with minors is harmless. I repeat: you do not have to give your consent to be given a birthday present, or a surprise party, because these things are harmless. The necessity of consent depends on something being harmful, so whether sex with minors is harmful is the important issue here. I'm not sure that it is harmful, therefore I needn't bother to argue that minors can give consent. If it turns out that it is harmful, then the issue of consent will be relevant to your discussion with me.

Quote:

That can mean a "courtship" where you get her to the point where she thinks she wants sex...

What's the difference between thinking you want somrthing and actually wanting it? I'm not sure that there is a difference.

Quote:

12-year-olds are simply not able to think things through and give informed consent the way adults are.

I disagree, but for reasons stated above I'd rather focus on the issue of harm. But if you really want me to discuss consent further, then I will. But I'm going to bed soon and I'm going away for two weeks, in a couple of days. So there might be a delay if I don't have much time tomorrow.

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agrote wrote:

...and partly because I'm still not convinced that my condition actually causes any problems, apart from problems which would actually go away if it became socially acceptable to be the way I am.

You are playing games with yourself here.

Murder wouldn't be a problem if it became socially acceptable either. Neither would anything else. You can't rationalize your way out of a box. It doesn't work.

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other sites for you to read
http://www.dancinginthedarkness.com

http://www.apa.org/topics/topicsbehavior.html

http://www.apa.org/releases/sexabuse/homepage.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_rape

You wanted to know my thoughts about your past as related to your desire to have sex with children. I have a few thoughts, but I will keep them to myself for now. However, here is a list off a legal site you might be interested in:

(from: http://www.vahealth.org/civp/sexualviolence/varapelaws/Youth%20Service%20Curriculum2.pdf)

Who is at risk for being an exploiter?

>Older teens who may not feel confident of their ability to attract and maintain a relationship with an equal may turn to someone younger as a way to bolster self-esteem.

> Men/older boys who have rigid, stereotyped views of masculinity may see the "conquest" of a young girl as an affirmation of their masculinity.

>Older teens and adults who have control issues may find it easier to control someone who is younger.

>Adults who have not been successful in their relationships with other adults may turn to preying on young teens.

>Victims of child sexual abuse may abuse younger teens.

Do you see yourself in any of those categories?

Oh and your disorder is not genetic. Homosexuality is not genetic either. It is something that happens in utero which is different from genetics. Genetics infers DNA coding, sexuality is traced to hormone levels in utero.

Find information like this, AND MORE...by attending a university near you!

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Listen: Sex without consent is HARMFUL IN ITSELF. A girl's body being used in a way she did not choose IS the harm. It is not dependent on what the sex is like, do you get that? It is the very event of being powerless to control what happens to you that is harmful, in and of itself.

And speaking both as a former 13-year-old and as a current adult woman, sex is overwhelming sometimes. Even as an adult, there have been times when sex started off okay, then began to be uncomfortable, then began to feel downright invasive and upsetting. I'm talking about being 25, 26, 27, and still sometimes not being sure of how I was going to react to having sex. If that had ever happened to me as a child, I absolutely could not have processed the experience without harm.

There will never be circumstances where you will be able to know that a child is ready to have sex, no matter what she says, no matter what you think. I know you will just respond that you cannot accept that until you see the research that proves it, but the thing is, there will NEVER be enough evidence to convince you that you are wrong. You just continue to reply, "but but but" to every fact that is presented to you, and you will never stop because you are determined to come to the conclusion that it is okay to have sex with a young girl.

You need help, not because a therapist will be able to make your desires go away, but because you absolutely need to allow yourself to see that you WILL be doing a child harm if you go through with this.

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fishin wrote:

Murder wouldn't be a problem if it became socially acceptable either. Neither would anything else. You can't rationalize your way out of a box. It doesn't work.

I'm not so sure about that. Murder would still be cruel and harmful, no matter what people thought.

Anyway the problems I was referring to were my own psychological problems. I have bouts of depression, some of which might result from feeling isolated by having sexual feelings that society sees as 'sick'. So in that sense, my condition does cause problems and therefore could be considered pathological. But those sorts of problems would go away if I felt that society accepted me.

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Re: other sites for you to read

rhachis wrote:

Do you see yourself in any of those categories?

I sort of fit this category...

Quote:

>Adults who have not been successful in their relationships with other adults may turn to preying on young teens.

...in the sense that I have not been sucessful in my relationships with adults, and I am attracted to younger teens. But I don't think the word 'preying' is appropriate. I wouldn't 'prey' on anybody. And I don't think that I am interested in young girls because I have had little sucess with adult relationships; I don't think there's a causal link there. I don't think I've 'turned to' younger teens; I have always fancied them.

So I guess I don't really fit any of those categories.

Quote:

Oh and your disorder is not genetic. Homosexuality is not genetic either. It is something that happens in utero which is different from genetics. Genetics infers DNA coding, sexuality is traced to hormone levels in utero.

Okay, sounds like you know more than I do. But that still means it's something you're born with and that you can't help. It's not like a fetish; you can't develop a fetish for leather in utero. I don't think this is something I can unlearn.

Quote:

Find information like this, AND MORE...by attending a university near you!

I just finished my degree, but it wasn't in Biology I'm afraid. It was joint honours Psychology and Philosophy, but I can't remember anything they told me about sexual development. Oh well.

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16 year old girl , 17 year old male, male is in jail because the girl gave him head.

that is stupid.

it might sound pretty horrible but alot of 13-14 year old girls i know date men that are like 21+

And the truth is they seem pretty happy, and what i thought was really weird was alot of them would ask me about sex and stuff, and why their boyfriends didnt want to do it with them. I grew up around alot of females, and to me they are worse than guys when it comes to wanting to get laid.

I think older guys should date younger girls, im 22 and i would date a 16-17 year old and feel comfortable with it. Other people think anything outside of 1 year apart is bad.

well it depends actually, everything in moderation. But i have to agree most girls are capable of handling themselves, and if they arent they shouldnt be out of your sight in the first place.

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agrote wrote:

fishin wrote:
Murder wouldn't be a problem if it became socially acceptable either. Neither would anything else. You can't rationalize your way out of a box. It doesn't work.

I'm not so sure about that. Murder would still be cruel and harmful, no matter what people thought.

Anyway the problems I was referring to were my own psychological problems. I have bouts of depression, some of which might result from feeling isolated by having sexual feelings that society sees as 'sick'. So in that sense, my condition does cause problems and therefore could be considered pathological. But those sorts of problems would go away if I felt that society accepted me.

Agrote, you're still looking at this arse about face. It seems to me that you think the problem in question is brought about by an unreasonable society, rather than recognising your particular sexual feelings as being the root of it all.
It's a bit like an arsonist complaining that society won't allow him to get his gratification by starting a fire wherever or whenever he chooses, as long as he made sure that no lives were in danger.
Laws were brought in by society to safeguard society, and have been fine tuned over the ages based on many hundreds of years of knowledge, experience and evidence as to what is, or is not, acceptable to the vast majority.

You have to face up to the fact that the vast majority of society would deem your desires and possible future actions as totally unnacceptable and that this viewpoint will never change. You therefore have to ask yourself a question.
Can all those millions of people who make up that vast majority be wrong?
I think you know the answer.

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cyphercat wrote:

It is the very event of being powerless to control what happens to you that is harmful, in and of itself.

The very event of being powerless to control what happens to you is harmful in and of itself?

So when you're walking to work and it's very windy, and your hair is blowing around, that's harmful? It's happening to you, and you're powerless to control it, so by your argument it must be harmful.

Quote:

There will never be circumstances where you will be able to know that a child is ready to have sex, no matter what she says, no matter what you think. I know you will just respond that you cannot accept that until you see the research that proves it, but the thing is, there will NEVER be enough evidence to convince you that you are wrong. You just continue to reply, "but but but" to every fact that is presented to you, and you will never stop because you are determined to come to the conclusion that it is okay to have sex with a young girl.

Look again at the evidence that has actually been shown to me. There's a paper that says there's a risk of cancer which can be reduced through contraception. And then there's a paper which says that, while there is some evidence that teenagers who have sex are more likely to be emotionally disturbed...

Quote:

Little is known about the effect of early sexual intercourse on subsequent psychosexual functioning. The issue of whether a young person is ready to embark on a sexual relationship remains a complex one.

If you conclude from these bits of evidence that sex with minors is harmful, or always harmful, then that's simply prejudicial. Your conclusion may well be correct, but it doesn't follow from the evidence that has actually been put forward in this forum (excluding rachis' last links, which I haven't had time to read yet).

So it's not a case of me ignoring the evidence because it doesn't fit in with what I want to believe, which is what you seem to suggest. It's a case of the evidence simply not being conclusive enough for it to be reasonable for my claims to be rejected. From what I've seen in this thread, it still seems perfectly possible that sex with minors is fairly harmless.

I know my claims must seem like wishful thinking, but I can honestly say that I do have doubts about them, more than when I started this discussion, and I am trying to let reason be my guide. If it turns out that sex with minors is significantly harmful, then I will have to admit that I was wrong. But that has not yet been shown to be the case.

Quote:

You need help, not because a therapist will be able to make your desires go away, but because you absolutely need to allow yourself to see that you WILL be doing a child harm if you go through with this.

Yes, I need to do more research. I don't think a therapist could serve that role for me.

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