Cleanlinesss throughout the ages

That's interesting. Where did you read that the Greeks were the "original western society with hedonistic social order"?

Europe until the 7th century b.c. was primitive and unorganized. The Bell Beaker had barely settled into cities by the 1800's, The Carpathian and Balkan's were barbarians. The schools of Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle developed civilized societies and economic and social orders. The Hellenistic order that began the classification by the schools of thought, elevated educators and intelligence that promoted civil actions and governments.

The western terminology originated with their philosophical priorities over religious and military power. The medical, educational, and learning schools created a different class of social excellence. Without the strong religious and military presence, hedonism became a lucrative business.

This pattern became the pattern of western development, thus the western classification.

There was much urbanization in the East. From mesopotamia to china, irrigation and flood control were already developed. Greece, with its land connections to the East was the first to urbanize and modernize in the west.

The complete history of the World; Richard Oveary

Thanks densedome.

I was wondering what is the connection between cleanliness and hedonism, but can't find any. Hedonism does not mean that the Greeks were unclean, considering that they could easily bathe in the sea.

I wonder if you have ever you been to Greece? Not all Greeks live or lived at walking distance of the sea. Sparta, for example was over 55 km from the coast, not a leisurely stroll, even for a Spartan

Yes, I have been a few times a long time ago. I guess you are right, although I still don't see the relation.

I've been an exhibition "Luxury and decadence", showing recently found pieces from around the Guld of Naples.

Thís bathroom (~ 100 BC) has been never shown completely in public before

That's very beautiful, Walter. How many persons could fit in, did they mention? I see only one faucet, I guess there was no running hot water?

I'm not sure about the number of persons - but they had warm water: mixed it.

(I couldn't use a flash, so the photos are a bit dark :wink: )

I have to say I love the idea of simplicity of life in days gone by - but the filth of castles with hay on the floor and wiping hands on clothes and peeing in corners hinders the picture in my mind! My sense of smell is acute and I get nauseous when I take stairs that someone has urinated in...ugh...just thinking about it. Ew.

I like things clean - though I wouldn't term myself as a clean freak. But I do know that I have antiseptic wipes in my purse and antibacterial gel hanging from my keychain and use it quite a bit. I have heard that with all of the antibacterial things we use we are actually killing good bacteria as well and that we can actually become sicker because of it. I blame this on Oprah. I saw the show where they went and tested different places for different things - feces being one of them...and it was everywhere. Gross. But I wonder how true is that? And is America finatical? Are we over the top when it comes to all of the antibacterial stuff? A friend of mine just moved to England and she says she cannot find Lysol, or antibacterial wipes or gel there. I by no means think that England is dirty...I just think every country has different ways of doing things....but are we overboard with our efforts in cleanliness?

There aren't dozens of different brands .... but all major firms have at least two of them, plus the "no-name" products. ('Lysol' is called Dettol in the UK.)

Thank you Walter Hinteler - I will let her know. She has only been there a couple of months and doesn't know a thing. Going through some serious changes! Good for her though...I envy her - seeing all the history and beauty on a daily basis.

Thanks for the info.

If I can just add to this debate? First of all, the body is self-cleansing, to a high degree. If it was left to itself, without clothing, it could still get by. Very often, it is the cloth that holds the odours. Moreover, water is not essential; you can 'dry-clean' yourself by rubbing with cloths, or applying perfumed lotions.

Secondly, there is a lot of myth about filth (and filthy kings and queens) in the past. People everywhere spent a lot of time grooming themselves (and grooming other people). Dating from the earliest times of the ancient world, the richest elites would always present themselves as clean and groomed and heavily ornamented - it was part of their power-play. Elizabeth I of England had piped hot water (and a steam room) in at least one of her palaces. If you were poor, you could still be clean (for example) on the religious holy-day, or local feast-day, using minimal eqipment - a bowl of water. the invention of combs, mirrors, cosmetics and soap, occurred in the Eurasian Bronze Age.

Thirdly, everywhere in the world has a different history of cleanliness, and different cleansing customs. It all depends on geographical location, economics, early cultures and religion. But anthropology suggests that childbirth, marriage and death were, universally, all occasions for special bodily cleansing.

That's enough for now!
Best wishes,
Virginia Smith
(Author of 'Clean: a history of personal hygiene and purity', OUP 2008)

Bathing was not just for the rich. Everzbodz could take a bath in the cities common bathhouses during the Middle Ages. When the cities grew and wood got to be scarse, water was often dirty and spread cholera and other illnesses and the free sexual life spread veneral diseases. The result was to close the bathhouses. For the churches is a victory against the low moral.
Buth as the bathhouses closed also the most important meeting place for the common people closed - a place to meet and discuss things.
It took only about a century and the bathhouses were replaced with pubs.
In middle Europe the common bathing ended around 1500, in France 1546.
Not until 1930 Rome got a bathhouse buildt by the fascistic government to stop the cafe conversations.

The Scandinavian countries continued with the bathing habits until around 1700.
The idea of not taking a bath started very early in some Christian cloisters.
This strange idea came because bathing is something nobody would like to be without. A nice and good thing. So to give up something good in daily life one stopped bathing.
Still the cloisters seemed to be a place with a certain cleanliness. Well behaved munks were allowed to have a warm bath - not well behaving got a cold bath.