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800th anniversary of Magna Carta.

 
 
Reply Sat 13 Jun, 2015 05:14 am
For those who are interested.

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/media/images/83599000/jpg/_83599050_77532199.jpg
Quote:
A replica of Magna Carta is being carried down the Thames as part of events to mark its 800th anniversary.

The Royal Barge Gloriana is leading 200 boats from Hurley in Berkshire to Runnymede in Surrey over two days.

Magna Carta was granted by King John on 15 June 1215, establishing that the king was subject to the law rather than being above it.

Twenty-three local people have been chosen as "charter bearers" to relay the document.

The pageant, which started at 09:00 BST, has been organised by Thames Alive, with support from Royal Borough of Windsor and Maidenhead, Runnymede borough and Spelthorne borough councils.
As the copy of Magna Carta is transported downstream, actors will recount its story.

Charter bearers, who live, work or study in one of the three boroughs, will carry the document on board the Royal Shallop Jubilant.

The Queen's Diamond Jubilee barge, Gloriana, is the flagship of the flotilla.
The event will culminate with the unveiling of a 4m (13ft) bronze statue of the Queen at Runnymede Pleasure Grounds on Sunday.

Road closures will be in place during the celebrations in Berkshire and Surrey.

Principles set out in Magna Carta charted the right to a fair trial and limits on taxation without representation.

It also inspired a number of other documents, including the US Constitution and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-33116579
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Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Sat 13 Jun, 2015 06:40 am
It is utter bull that Magna Carta established no taxation without representation (after all, there was no representative body in existence at that time). It is equally a load of old bollocks that it inspired the United States constitution. Don't get carried away over there.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Jun, 2015 06:51 am
@Setanta,
Aren't you the little ray of sunshine? Sounds a bit like sour grapes to me. It was deemed important enough for the American Bar Association to erect a monument in 1957.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Magna_Carta_Memorial,_Runnymede_-_geograph.org.uk_-_705911.jpg
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 13 Jun, 2015 06:58 am
Sour grapes? Ah-hahahahahahahaha . . .

I didn't say it was unimportant, so that's a straw man, which is as good as it gets with you. I said it didn't establish no taxation without representation, and it didn't inspire the United States constitution. Try to keep to the remarks i actually make, rather than what you wish you could argue against.

The more i see of the BBC, the less impressed i am with their grasp of history, or at the least, their ability to accurately portray it.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sat 13 Jun, 2015 07:08 am
@Setanta,
That's just your opinion which is about as biased as it's possible to get. So your constitution was written by men who had no knowledge of Magna Carta?

We're not getting carried away, if you go top the front page it's taken up with the Birthday Honours list. You Americans built the monument to Magna Carta, not us, and I bet they'll be queuing up on the day to say how significant it is.

Just face it, we had the beginnings of parliamentary democracy hundreds of years before Columbus set sail for the New World, and that was hundreds of years before your constitution was put together.

Sour grapes indeed, you don't like the history so you attempt to rewrite it.


This is what an American website has to say on the matter.

Quote:
Such Revolutionary War era principles as habeas corpus and the wrongness of taxation without representation drew their roots from English Law of the 17th century that was based upon the Magna Carta. King George had violated these laws...in effect placing his decisions above the law of the land, and this gave the Colonists not only the right to seek freedom, but a responsibility to do so.

Not only did the Magna Carta become a "springboard" for Jefferson's revolutionary Declaration of Independence, the concepts of LAW as supreme (above even kings or legislative bodies) were drafted into the United States Constitution by James Monroe. The Bill of Rights, and specifically the 5th and 6th Amendments, find their heart and even their verbiage in the words of The Great Charter. Born in England in the 13th Century, the Magna Carta is arguably American as it is British.



http://www.homeofheroes.com/hallofheroes/1st_floor/birth/1bc1b.html<br />
This thread is about the 800 year anniversary of Magna Carta not about America, so stop trying to make it about yourself.

0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 13 Jun, 2015 07:16 am
Uh-huh . . . explain how Magna Carta did anything to establish parliamentary democracy. Oh yeah . . . democracy--which is why they didn't come up with a reform bill until 1830. The inspiration for the American constitution does not go back nearly as far. The most important single influence was the political philosophy of John Locke. The most influential historical events were the English civil wars of the 17th century.

You're the one who is trying to make it about me with your stupid sour grapes bullshit. I was addressing the (typical) historical inaccuracies of the BBC. Get over it.
Setanta
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 13 Jun, 2015 07:18 am
I see you've edited since i replied. Note that your quoted passage speaks of the 17th century, with only a vague waft about Magna Carta. This thread is about Magna Carta, and i am pointing out the inaccuracies of the BBC's presentation. Get over yourself.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sat 13 Jun, 2015 07:22 am
@Setanta,
I edited before I was aware of your reply. Many Americans, (albeit those without an enormous chip on their shoulders) are happy to celebrate the anniversary of Magna Carta, and see it as part of their heritage. Why else would Americans build the memorial?

And a jolly nice memorial too.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 13 Jun, 2015 07:23 am
@Setanta,
John Locke was English, you might want to edit that post.
Tes yeux noirs
 
  0  
Reply Sat 13 Jun, 2015 07:55 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
It is utter bull that Magna Carta established no taxation without representation (after all, there was no representative body in existence at that time). It is equally a load of old bollocks that it inspired the United States constitution. Don't get carried away over there.

Indeed. In a leader today the Guardian says

Quote:
Even with the benefit of a legible version and a modern translation of Magna Carta it is sometimes difficult to see what all the fuss is about. The charter that King John signed at Runnymede on 15 June 1215 is, as the Master of the Rolls, Lord Dyson, said this year, a curious hotch-potch. A ringing – or any other kind of – declaration of modern liberties it most definitely is not. The idea that it has much directly to do with democracy, equality or, as Margaret Thatcher claimed in her Bruges lecture in 1988, with representative government, is false. It is a stretch to claim that the charter is the root of the modern rights of women, although it does codify the right – which had been developing for a generation or more – that “no widow shall be compelled to marry so long as she wishes to remain without a husband”, and even gave them certain very narrow property rights. It did not expressly endorse trial by jury. It states no overarching theory of rights. Most of what it contains is pragmatic rather than principled. Look at chapter 50 of the charter, for example, in which the king pledges to “entirely remove from our bailiwicks the relations of Gerard de Atheyes, so that for the future they will have no bailiwick in England”. This part of the document is all about brute power, not grand statements.


and...

Quote:
FW Maitland, father of modern English legal history, called Magna Carta a “sacred text”. David Cameron has called it the “foundation of all our laws and liberties”. Historically speaking, this is bunk.


however...

Quote:
But in so far as it supports the idea that individual freedom is precious and must be defended and passed on, it is genuinely ennobling. Myth it may be, but a virtuous national myth that speaks to the belief that the timeless and magisterial law stands above the flawed ruler, whether medieval or modern.


I couldn't have put it better myself.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Jun, 2015 08:25 am
Obviously, the Magna Carta wasn't well-known even decades after it was signed: peasants (and labourers) referred to the rights in the Domesday Book, in 1371.

Similar acts in continental Europe were the Golden Bull in Hungary, the Blijde Intrede in Flanders, and a few others in in France, Luxembourg and other regions of the Holy Roman Empire, leading finally to the Golden Bull of 1356 for all of the Holy Roman Empire.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Jun, 2015 09:04 am
Some pictures, one of the model knights who looks like he'd be more at home in a theme park.

http://static0.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/7800-0/photos/1434141840-magna-carta-barons-charter-trail-launch-salisbury-cathedral_7837670.jpg

The traveller's camp that's inconveniently in situ.

http://static1.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/7800-4/photos/1434149124-magna-carta-celebration-at-runnymede-threatened-by-police_7839254.jpg
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 14 Jun, 2015 05:01 am
@izzythepush,
This is part and parcel of your typical hysterical response to any criticism, especially when it comes from me. Your BS notwithstanding, i am not anti-English. It is simple truth, and justice for that matter, to acknowledge John Locke's profound influence on the framers of the U.S. Constitution.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 14 Jun, 2015 05:05 am
@Tes yeux noirs,
I have read Magna Carta, although many, many years ago. It is largely taken up with rights in property--very specific, too. as your Guardian quote demonstrates. There are also several passage which indemnify persons and boroughs for having already rebelled against John. Democracy was not even an ugly rumor in the mind of any of the participants.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sun 14 Jun, 2015 05:36 am

Quote:
Scientists have made a new discovery that sheds further light on the church's role in the creation and distribution of Magna Carta.

The identity of those who wrote two of the four remaining copies of the 1215 legal document have been uncovered by the Magna Carta Project ahead of its 800th anniversary on Monday.

Professor Nicholas Vincent, a medieval history expert at the University of East Anglia and the project's principal investigator, said:

To have found and identified the work of these scribes, 800 years after their writing, is a significant achievement, certainly equivalent to finding needles in a very large haystack.

But it also has important historical implications. It has become apparent, not least as a result of work undertaken for the Magna Carta Project, that the bishops of England were crucial to both the publication and the preservation of Magna Carta.

King John had no real intention that the charter be either publicised or enforced. It was the bishops instead who insisted that it be distributed to the country at large and thereafter who preserved it in their cathedral archives.

We now find at least two cathedral churches, Lincoln and Salisbury, each producing its own Magna Carta, supplying the time, the scribe and the initiative to get the document copied.

– Professor Nicholas Vincent

The project, involving academics from UEA and King's College London, found that the Lincoln Magna Carta was written by a scribe who produced several other documents for the Bishop of Lincoln and Salisbury's was "probably" made by someone working for the cathedral's dean and chapter.

"This serves as an important reminder of the ways in which our modern ideas of freedom, democracy and the rule of law emerged from a close co-operation between church and state," Prof Vincent added.

Project team member David Carpenter, professor of medieval history at King's, said: "These exciting discoveries dovetail perfectly with another major finding of the project, namely that one of the two originals of Magna Carta now in the British Library was sent in 1215 to Canterbury Cathedral and can be known as 'The Canterbury Magna Carta'.

"We now know, therefore, that three of the four surviving originals of the charter went to cathedrals: Lincoln, Salisbury and Canterbury. Probably cathedrals were the destination for the great majority of the other original charters issued in 1215."


http://www.itv.com/news/2015-06-14/magna-carta-scribes-identified-ahead-of-800th-anniversary/
0 Replies
 
Tes yeux noirs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jun, 2015 05:43 am
Judging by the picture, I could get on quite well with some of the people in that traveller's camp.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jun, 2015 05:52 am
@Tes yeux noirs,
You old hippie.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61P1cZZijAL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jun, 2015 06:21 am
Magna Carta: New research sheds light on the church's role in publishing world-famous charter
Quote:
New research suggests that Magna Carta may have been published predominantly by the church – rather than the Royal government of the day.
[...]
The research suggests that early 13th century England’s King John was so reluctant to publicize the now world-famous document that the church had to step in to ensure that sufficient copies were made and distributed.
[...]
What seems to have happened reveals King John’s reluctance to publicize what he had just been forced to agree to by the barons and bishops.

It had been the bishops who had been instrumental in bringing the king and the rebel barons together – and who had helped force the king to agree to and issue Magna Carta. The bishops had been present at Runnymede with the king and the barons during the negotiations there – and on 15 June, 1215 when the great royal seal was applied to the charter.

Now it seems that the bishops’ involvement simply continued – with their scribes being inserted into the royal chancery to ensure that the king did as he was told, that copies of the charter were made, that they were sealed with the royal seal and that they were then distributed.

The two copies that have so far been identified as having been produced by episcopal scribal representatives, inserted into the royal chancery, are those from Lincoln and Salisbury cathedrals.
... ... ...

0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Jun, 2015 01:39 am
Quote:
The Queen and members of the Royal Family are to attend an event marking the 800th anniversary of Magna Carta.

The ceremony will take place at Runnymede in Surrey, close to the River Thames, where King John of England sealed the original document in 1215.

The charter first protected the rights and freedoms of society as well as establishing that the King was subject to the law rather than being above it.

A major new art installation will also be unveiled in the Runnymede meadows.

The Queen will be joined by the Duke of Edinburgh, the Duke of Cambridge, Princess Anne and her husband Vice Admiral Sir Tim Laurence as well as Prime Minister David Cameron and other dignitaries from around the world.

The formal ceremony will take place from 09:15 BST with entertainment starting from 07:00 including musical and spoken word performances.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33126723
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