Reply
Fri 9 Jul, 2010 09:49 pm
Why should copyright infringement be illegal?
@Night Ripper,
Same answer as for any other kind of theft.
Generally speaking we all benefit from copyright infringement being illegal. If movies, music, and novels weren't profitable there would be way less of them.
@roger,
roger wrote:
Same answer as for any other kind of theft.
How is copyright infringement theft? If I steal your car, you can't use it anymore. If I make an exact copy of your car, your car hasn't been stolen because you can still use it.
@Jebediah,
Jebediah wrote:
Generally speaking we all benefit from copyright infringement being illegal. If movies, music, and novels weren't profitable there would be way less of them.
So there would be less of them. There would also be less people going to jail and having their liberty taken from them. It seems that we are enriching our lives at the expense of the liberty of others.
I find it hard to believe that before 1700 we were so worse off without copyright. All those great composers, Vivaldi, Bach, etc didn't have the benefit of copyright. Yet I'm supposed to believe that "...Baby One More Time" deserves something those other works didn't have?
Imagine you had designed a new kind of engine that was ten times more efficient than any currently in existence. However, prior to production starting, someone else got hold of a copy of the blueprints and used them to produce their own engine before you did. The market being what it is, the first on the scene tends to dominate thereafter. Thus, when you produce your own engine, it never gets off the ground and you go bust.
I don't think there is any problem in identiofying the above as being a legitimate object of copyrighting. The key, I suppose, is that infringement of the copyright in the above example caused a real world loss to be incurred due to not being able to sell the engine based on the blueprints. This still leaves the issue of copyright on intellectual property where there is no real world property external to the intellectual property that is going to be affected.
@stevecook172001,
stevecook172001 wrote:
Imagine you had designed a new kind of engine that was ten times more efficient than any currently in existence. However, prior to production starting, someone else got hold of a copy of the blueprints and used them to produce their own engine before you did. The market being what it is, the first on the scene tends to dominate thereafter. Thus, when you produce your own engine, it never gets off the ground and you go bust.
I don't think there is any problem in identiofying the above as being a legitimate object of copyrighting. The key, I suppose, is that infringement of the copyright in the above example caused a real world loss to be incurred due to not being able to sell the engine based on the blueprints. This still leaves the issue of copyright on intellectual property where there is no real world property external to the intellectual property that is going to be affected.
Imagine you make buggy whips and along comes someone that designs a car making them obsolete. Now you're out of a business and forced into poverty. Does this mean we outlaw cars so buggy whips can still be sold? Of course not so why do we owe the maker of an engine anything?
Do you realize that most academic research is paid for by taxpayers and then we are charged yet again to buy the actual products at inflated prices because of patents etc?
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper wrote:
Jebediah wrote:
Generally speaking we all benefit from copyright infringement being illegal. If movies, music, and novels weren't profitable there would be way less of them.
So there would be less of them. There would also be less people going to jail and having their liberty taken from them. It seems that we are enriching our lives at the expense of the liberty of others.
I find it hard to believe that before 1700 we were so worse off without copyright. All those great composers, Vivaldi, Bach, etc didn't have the benefit of copyright. Yet I'm supposed to believe that "...Baby One More Time" deserves something those other works didn't have?
They had private sponsors, and worked solo. A movie requires 10,000 people. I think you are underestimating how much fewer movies we would have, and how many people would be put out of work.
Books seem to be in a good place as far as copyright because people like to have a solid copy in their hands.
Music is more interesting. There are a lot of issues with the industry.
@Jebediah,
Jebediah wrote:
Night Ripper wrote:
Jebediah wrote:
Generally speaking we all benefit from copyright infringement being illegal. If movies, music, and novels weren't profitable there would be way less of them.
So there would be less of them. There would also be less people going to jail and having their liberty taken from them. It seems that we are enriching our lives at the expense of the liberty of others.
I find it hard to believe that before 1700 we were so worse off without copyright. All those great composers, Vivaldi, Bach, etc didn't have the benefit of copyright. Yet I'm supposed to believe that "...Baby One More Time" deserves something those other works didn't have?
They had private sponsors, and worked solo. A movie requires 10,000 people. I think you are underestimating how much fewer movies we would have, and how many people would be put out of work.
Books seem to be in a good place as far as copyright because people like to have a solid copy in their hands.
Music is more interesting. There are a lot of issues with the industry.
Again, if it comes down to taking away the liberty of others vs. doing without a few movies then so be it.
You should read up on "Hollywood Accounting". Hollywood is already screwing the artists out of their money. The guy that wrote Forest Gump didn't get a dime for the movie because they artificially make it seem like recorded a loss when it actually made profits. Peter Jackson had to sue over LotR. The latest Harry Potter movie also recorded a loss despite doing over a billion dollars in sales.
Besides, it's naive to think a movie requires 10,000 people. Movies like "Clerks" by Kevin Smith only cost $27,000 to produce. "Paranormal Activity" cost $15,000. "Eraserhead" only cost $10,000.
In other words, it doesn't take big bucks to make a decent or even excellent movie. Yet, you think we should be locking people up in rape dungeons just so you can watch "Transformers 3"?
@Night Ripper,
Oh night ripper.
Copyright laws don't force people to go to jail. If you steal someone elses work and try and sell it you will go to jail. As far as I know they only fine people for private use copying. Those people aren't forced either.
You aren't the arbiter of what movies and music are worthwhile either.
@Jebediah,
Jebediah wrote:
Oh night ripper.
Copyright laws don't force people to go to jail. If you steal someone elses work and try and sell it you will go to jail. As far as I know they only fine people for private use copying. Those people aren't forced either.
You aren't the arbiter of what movies and music are worthwhile either.
All laws are ultimately threats of imprisonment or death. You say, "Oh but just pay the fine" but what happens if I refuse? They come and take me away to jail. What happens if I resist? They shoot me dead. If anyone else in a blue costume tried to show up and kidnap me I would be in my rights to defend myself, with violence if necessary but since this is a special government-issued blue costume they can do whatever the hell they want.
Remember that, all laws ultimately escalate to imprisonment or death, without exception, from littering to rape.
I needed to borrow $100,000 a few minutes ago, but I needed to use another identity.
Voilà, I hacked into Night Ripper's computer got his information and used that to secure "the loan". It's not with a "Bank".
He's not out anything, especially if I pay the money back, right, Jebediah?
It's not like you own your own name.
Oh yeah, I saw where you were working on that music video script, great idea btw, I emailed it two producer-friends of mine knowing you wouldn't care since it was only your idea, your work and your "property" that was involved.
They did ask, they asked if you would want to be compensated for your efforts and I told them "****, no. He doesn't believe in anybody possessing things or ideas or creations. Inventions? Screw that. Everything's up for grabs." They were pleased to hear that, I tell you.
~~
I would be very interested,Rip, in how you intend to make an exact duplicate of MY CAR. Now, are you going to supply the metal, wires, plastic and glass necessary to perform this stunt, because, if so, have at it. But you can't have one Phillips Truss Head Sheet Metal Screw if it belongs to me.
(Don't forget the tires and there's a half of case of Sam Adams Beer in the trunk. You'll need to duplicate that too. That's going to hard to brew that small amount of beer, btw. But I know you're not going to take mine or anybody else's, right?)
Let me know when it's ready, we'll go for a drive together.
As for the laws, and the people in the blue, sometimes black, sometimes brown, uniforms enforcing the rule of ownership on all of us: that is by agreements reached over thousands of years of being on the planet together. Do laws lead to death? Only for those without the wisdom to change the laws they find do not benefit society as a whole.
Want to be able to use anyone's copyrighted material without any cost to you? Good. Show how such activity would benefit anyone other than yourself and the few other untalented persons who you might share the material with.
The first payment on the 100k needs to be paid on the 20th to a guy named Louie.
If I'm late, he'll come looking for you.
Don't smile at Louie.
And don't try to explain.
Joe(just pay him)Nation
@Joe Nation,
Joe Nation wrote:
I needed to borrow $100,000 a few minutes ago, but I needed to use another identity.
Voilà, I hacked into Night Ripper's computer got his information and used that to secure "the loan". It's not with a "Bank".
Any loanshark that takes loans over the Internet is an idiot and it's hard to be afraid of morons.
Joe Nation wrote:Oh yeah, I saw where you were working on that music video script, great idea btw, I emailed it two producer-friends of mine knowing you wouldn't care since it was only your idea, your work and your "property" that was involved.
They did ask, they asked if you would want to be compensated for your efforts and I told them "****, no. He doesn't believe in anybody possessing things or ideas or creations. Inventions? Screw that. Everything's up for grabs." They were pleased to hear that, I tell you.
As an artist I'm just glad people enjoy what I produced.
Joe Nation wrote:I would be very interested,Rip, in how you intend to make an exact duplicate of MY CAR. Now, are you going to supply the metal, wires, plastic and glass necessary to perform this stunt, because, if so, have at it. But you can't have one Phillips Truss Head Sheet Metal Screw if it belongs to me.
I have this magical device called a "mail-order catalog" and inside of it you can find replacement parts for all models of cars. I knew a guy that built a trans-am out of nothing but replacement parts.
Joe Nation wrote: (Don't forget the tires and there's a half of case of Sam Adams Beer in the trunk. You'll need to duplicate that too. That's going to hard to brew that small amount of beer, btw. But I know you're not going to take mine or anybody else's, right?)
Take? No, I have money and people are willing to sell those things. How do you think you got the beer in the first place? Do you think you're the only one that knows the grocery stores sell beer? It's not a secret.
Joe Nation wrote:As for the laws, and the people in the blue, sometimes black, sometimes brown, uniforms enforcing the rule of ownership on all of us: that is by agreements reached over thousands of years of being on the planet together. Do laws lead to death? Only for those without the wisdom to change the laws they find do not benefit society as a whole.
Right, so all those slaves tortured and killed were just "unwise". That's a lovely thought.
Joe Nation wrote:Want to be able to use anyone's copyrighted material without any cost to you? Good. Show how such activity would benefit anyone other than yourself and the few other untalented persons who you might share the material with.
I don't need to show anything since the default position is freedom. You need to justify taking away my liberty. I don't need to justify why I'm free in the first place.
Joe Nation wrote:The first payment on the 100k needs to be paid on the 20th to a guy named Louie.
If I'm late, he'll come looking for you.
Don't smile at Louie.
And don't try to explain.
Joe(just pay him)Nation
I think it will be hard not to smile at some e-thug that gave out a loan based on the fact that "some guy" on the Internet claimed he was me. I think I'll just give him a shiny object and distract him long enough to call my private security guards that I pay personally to take care of dumb thugs like Louie.
You're a very excitable guy, aren't you?
@Night Ripper,
Quote:How is copyright infringement theft? If I steal your car, you can't use it anymore. If I make an exact copy of your car, your car hasn't been stolen because you can still use it.
This is the dumbest analogy I have ever read.
You, speaking of being excitable, write about getting shot to death because you won't pay for some fricking music download. BUT You're willing to pay for beer and car parts but not ..oh, nevermind.
Joe(just heads out the door to Actualityville. Say hello to your imaginary body guards.)Nation
@Joe Nation,
Joe Nation wrote:
Quote:How is copyright infringement theft? If I steal your car, you can't use it anymore. If I make an exact copy of your car, your car hasn't been stolen because you can still use it.
This is the dumbest analogy I have ever read.
You, speaking of being excitable, write about getting shot to death because you won't pay for some fricking music download. BUT You're willing to pay for beer and car parts but not ..oh, nevermind.
Joe(just heads out the door to Actualityville. Say hello to your imaginary body guards.)Nation
If you don't believe me then I dare you to refuse to pay a court fine and refuse to leave your house when they show up to take you to jail. If you resist arrest they will use force. If you try to defend yourself you will be shot, plain and simple.
I'm willing to pay for beer and car parts because those are actual property that is scarce. If I drink a beer, no one else can drink it. If I use a car part, no one else can. If I download some music, nothing changes, everyone else can still download it. That's the difference which you aren't willing to acknowledge.
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper wrote:
Joe Nation wrote:
I needed to borrow $100,000 a few minutes ago, but I needed to use another identity.
Voilà, I hacked into Night Ripper's computer got his information and used that to secure "the loan". It's not with a "Bank".
Any loanshark that takes loans over the Internet is an idiot and it's hard to be afraid of morons.
Joe Nation wrote:Oh yeah, I saw where you were working on that music video script, great idea btw, I emailed it two producer-friends of mine knowing you wouldn't care since it was only your idea, your work and your "property" that was involved.
They did ask, they asked if you would want to be compensated for your efforts and I told them "****, no. He doesn't believe in anybody possessing things or ideas or creations. Inventions? Screw that. Everything's up for grabs." They were pleased to hear that, I tell you.
As an artist I'm just glad people enjoy what I produced.
Joe Nation wrote:I would be very interested,Rip, in how you intend to make an exact duplicate of MY CAR. Now, are you going to supply the metal, wires, plastic and glass necessary to perform this stunt, because, if so, have at it. But you can't have one Phillips Truss Head Sheet Metal Screw if it belongs to me.
I have this magical device called a "mail-order catalog" and inside of it you can find replacement parts for all models of cars. I knew a guy that built a trans-am out of nothing but replacement parts.
Joe Nation wrote: (Don't forget the tires and there's a half of case of Sam Adams Beer in the trunk. You'll need to duplicate that too. That's going to hard to brew that small amount of beer, btw. But I know you're not going to take mine or anybody else's, right?)
Take? No, I have money and people are willing to sell those things. How do you think you got the beer in the first place? Do you think you're the only one that knows the grocery stores sell beer? It's not a secret.
Joe Nation wrote:As for the laws, and the people in the blue, sometimes black, sometimes brown, uniforms enforcing the rule of ownership on all of us: that is by agreements reached over thousands of years of being on the planet together. Do laws lead to death? Only for those without the wisdom to change the laws they find do not benefit society as a whole.
Right, so all those slaves tortured and killed were just "unwise". That's a lovely thought.
Joe Nation wrote:Want to be able to use anyone's copyrighted material without any cost to you? Good. Show how such activity would benefit anyone other than yourself and the few other untalented persons who you might share the material with.
I don't need to show anything since the default position is freedom. You need to justify taking away my liberty. I don't need to justify why I'm free in the first place.
Joe Nation wrote:The first payment on the 100k needs to be paid on the 20th to a guy named Louie.
If I'm late, he'll come looking for you.
Don't smile at Louie.
And don't try to explain.
Joe(just pay him)Nation
I think it will be hard not to smile at some e-thug that gave out a loan based on the fact that "some guy" on the Internet claimed he was me. I think I'll just give him a shiny object and distract him long enough to call my private security guards that I pay personally to take care of dumb thugs like Louie.
You're a very excitable guy, aren't you?
You being silly now anren't you NR...
Pack it in before you dig any deeper matey
@stevecook172001,
stevecook172001 wrote:Pack it in before you dig any deeper matey
I think he's holding his end up rather well. Personally, I doubt I'd have bothered to reply.
So funny.
If I make and sell car parts for a living, Ripper is willing to pay me for them.
If I make and sell copies of my song for a living, he is not willing.
Joe(clearly something missing here)Nation
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