62
   

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

 
 
revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Thu 2 Jul, 2015 01:47 pm
@Foofie,
Quote:
Well, optimism might be a false hope, since that might be akin to saying that current Americans might just want to go back to becoming British citizens.


Yours is a false analogy by a long shot and I think you know it, or should. I am not saying the Jews should give up Israel if they want peace. What I and some of those on the left in Israel and some of those in Palestine are saying is, for both sides to live in peace then both sides need to have equal states (not all one state)with equal resources and all rights which goes with a State. I am still hopeful a younger generation of both sides will see reason and realize that happening one day.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jul, 2015 12:09 am
@revelette2,
Well said . I would hope that too, but I am pessimistic and as I have stated before, I believe the only solution is to give in to the Israelis and resettle the Palestinians, starting with the ones that are already in camps but the Palestinian Authorities wont let them resettle .
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  2  
Reply Fri 3 Jul, 2015 07:12 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Well when I was a kid in Detroit we all knew the German and Russian/Polish Jews didn't get on very well, though we didn't know why. The former had generally been here longer, were more prosperous, and often didn't speak Yiddish. I did attend Hebrew Day school at the (largely German) local JCC under the pseudonym of Alan Weiss (30 minutes memorizing text in an incomprehensible language wasn't all that different from an altar boy's Latin drills). After class we could play basketball. Previously me and my Jewish pals played ball at the CYO (Catholic Youth Organization) gym, but it was closed for repairs. I was about 12 then, but it all ended when my mother found the mezuzah I put on before I went in..


When my grandparents arrived from Czarist Russia in the late 19th century, some of the German Jews referred to the Jews arriving from Eastern Europe as "wild eyed Asiatics." As I read, the German Jews had been accepted into Christian society fairly well, until the Russian Jews started coming. Then collectively Christians started asking themselves whether the German Jews were actually just these very strange Jews from Russia after all (Russian Jews spoke Yiddish, beat their chests while praying, subscribed to strange dietary laws, wore hats or yarmulkas often, and were crude by German Jewish standards - a putz/schmuck is Yiddish for the male genitalia). All in all, not a good marriage, so to speak. Things changed somewhat in later generations; however, after WWII, there were German Jews that managed to come to the U.S., and were still claiming they were German. Many Jews of Russian descent considered them in emotional denial, considering no amount of High German saved them from the camps, etc.

I also think that Jews that came from Russia had embraced a fair amount of Russian preferences in food, dance, music, and the German Jews might have often been quite proud of their German (authoritarian?) persona. They learned to stay apart, either due to economics, or the friendships might have been somewhat superficial between the two groups for a long time. Today, I have no idea how third and fourth/fifth generations feel towards each other. I'm out of the loop.

I have heard of Italian-American kids going to a Jewish community center to play basketball. It was not necessary to put in time in religious study. But, basketball might one day be recognized as the great peacemaker. Sort of like when women of different ethnicities exchanged recipes, and overcame initial alienation.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Fri 3 Jul, 2015 07:23 am
@Foofie,
You really should read "A Jewish-Christian Symbiosis: Ivan G. Marcus, The Culture of Early Ashkenaz, (in David Biale, publ., Cultures of the Jews: A New History (New York 2002), pages 449–516)
The book itself is giving a very good basis to learn (and study) the Jewish history.
Foofie
 
  2  
Reply Fri 3 Jul, 2015 07:42 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

You really should read "A Jewish-Christian Symbiosis: Ivan G. Marcus, The Culture of Early Ashkenaz, (in David Biale, publ., Cultures of the Jews: A New History (New York 2002), pages 449–516)
The book itself is giving a very good basis to learn (and study) the Jewish history.


Like I said before, I am not worldly. New York Jews and their experiences reflect the beginning and end of my ethnic concerns about Jews. In fact, New York City is really my main interest. Sometimes I wax nostalgic about NYC in the 1950's when there were six (English) newspapers for New Yorkers to read daily. Morning editions, evening editions, night owl editions. And, many people bought several newspapers each day. Some for the sports, some for editorials, some for the funnies (comic strips), some for the news.

Sometimes I imagine that I am like a citizen of Rome, a century or two after its sacking, and the newer arrivals are busy changing Latin into the future Romance language.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Tue 14 Jul, 2015 04:41 am
Quote:
An Israeli human rights group has published a video it says contradicts the account of an Israeli army officer who shot dead a Palestinian teenager.

Col Israel Shomer fired at Mohammed Kasbeh after the 17-year-old threw a stone at his vehicle in the West Bank.

Israel's military said at the time that Col Shomer felt his life was in danger.

But the video released by B'Tselem appears to show the teenager running away after attacking the vehicle. Soldiers then jump out and pursue him.

B'Tselem also said medical evidence suggested that he was shot in the back.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-33506008<br />
RABEL222
 
  0  
Reply Tue 14 Jul, 2015 07:29 pm
@izzythepush,
Cant get the article up Izzy.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jul, 2015 01:36 am
@RABEL222,
Neither can I. How about this? This seems to work OK.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-33506008

Here's the rest of the article anyway. I think the bit in large explains why the link didn't work.
Quote:

The Israeli military has not commented on the video, but the Times of Israel reported that Col Shomer had been interviewed under caution by military police investigating the shooting following its release.

'Mortal danger'

The incident took place on 3 July at the Qalandiya checkpoint between Jerusalem and Ramallah, the scene of frequent clashes between Palestinian protesters and Israeli troops.

A vehicle carrying Col Shomer, commander of the army's Binyamin Brigade, was hit by stones thrown by a group of youths, shattering its windshield.

The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said at the time that the colonel got out of the vehicle and ordered the stone-throwers to stop, firing a warning shot into the air. When the attack continued, he opened fire at the main perpetrator, it added.
The IDF stressed that Col Shomer believed he was in "imminent mortal danger" and several members of the government praised his actions.

But witnesses cast doubt on the commander's account.

Ahmed Taher, 17, who was throwing rocks beside Kasbeh, told the Washington Post after his funeral: "We were running away."

Fahdi Ziad, who works at a nearby petrol station, told the Guardian that three Israeli soldiers - two wearing a helmet, and one without one - chased after the teenagers and opened fire.

Mr Ziad said Kasbeh was about 10-15m (33-49ft) from the soldiers when he was shot. "After he fell on the ground the soldier without the helmet went and checked him and kicked him," he added.

Palestinian doctors also said the teenager was shot in the back and the side of the head.

'Unreasonable'

On Monday, B'Tselem released video footage recorded by a security camera at the petrol station showing the moments before the shooting.

It shows a person believed to be Kasbeh running at the Israeli army vehicle as it passes by and throwing a stone. He then runs away as the car then brakes suddenly and at least two soldiers get out, brandishing weapons.

In a statement, B'Tselem said the footage showed Col Shomer's claim of self-defence was "unreasonable".

"There is no doubt that the shattering of the jeep's front window with a stone endangered the passengers when it happened. However, Kasbeh was shot in the back after the fact, when he was already running away and posing no 'mortal threat' to the soldiers. Feeling a sense of danger is not enough to justify any action."

The rights group also noted that the video contradicted the IDF's claim that Col Shomer had carried out "suspect-arrest procedure".

"Military open-fire regulations permit shooting at the legs of a suspect in order to facilitate his arrest. They do not permit killing him by firing three shots at his upper body," it added.

Thaer Kasbah, the dead teenager's brother, told the Associated Press that it was clear from the video that Col Shomer "wanted to kill him".

Correction 14 July 2015: An earlier headline on this story that suggested the video showed Mohammed Kasbeh being shot has been amended.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2015 05:06 am
Recent action by IS in Gaza.

Quote:
A series of explosions on Sunday targeted cars belonging to officials in Gaza, including those from the ruling Hamas militant group.

Four blasts hit vehicles in Gaza City just after 06:00 (03:00 GMT). Two people suffered minor injuries.

News agencies said the five cars belonged to members of Hamas and the rival Islamic Jihad militant group.

Supporters of the so-called Islamic State group have threatened Hamas' leadership in Gaza in recent weeks.

The Jerusalem Post quoted one Hamas commander, Abu Hamar, as saying IS was to blame for Sunday's explosions. He called for Hamas to respond.

A video posted online last month by IS supporters in Syria made direct threats against what they called "the tyrants of Hamas" and said they would take over Gaza.

In Gaza, some Salafist groups - who adhere to a strict lifestyle based on that of the earliest followers of Islam - have started to support IS.

They have been blamed by Hamas for a series of explosions in the area. Dozens of Salafists have been arrested in recent weeks.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-33585847

Quote:
Islamic State-affiliated militants in Sinai say they have carried out a missile attack on an Egyptian naval vessel in the Mediterranean Sea.

The militants, who call themselves Sinai Province, posted pictures online of what looked like a missile followed by a large explosion on the ship.

Egyptian officials said a coastguard vessel caught fire after a fire-fight with militants on the shore.

The army said there were no casualties, contradicting the militants' claim.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-33557180

As far as IS attacks on Israel are concerned this is all I can find.

Quote:
Two rockets fired from Egypt's violence-plagued Sinai Peninsula exploded inside Israeli territory on Friday without causing casualties, a military spokesman said.

'Two rockets fired from Sinai struck southern Israel, but without causing casualties or material damage,' the spokesman said, without elaborating.

The Islamic State's affiliate in Egypt, 'Sinai Province', confirmed it had fired three Grad rockets at Israel, adding that it was in retaliation for Israel supporting Egypt's armed forces on Wednesday when the jihadis attacked army checkpoints in northern Sinai.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3149047/ISIS-carries-rocket-attacks-Israel-Two-Grad-missiles-fired-Egypt-s-Sinai-Peninsula-just-days-jihadis-killed-50-Egyptian-soldiers-brutal-dawn-raids.html<br />

Some believe Israel sponsors IS, in this they do have form in that Hamas was funded by Israel to destabilise the PLO. The fact that IS has focused most of its energy on killing other Moslems also adds credence to the claim. It also adds to the perception that all Moslems are unreasonable fanatics.
Foofie
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2015 10:30 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Some believe Israel sponsors IS, in this they do have form in that Hamas was funded by Israel to destabilise the PLO. The fact that IS has focused most of its energy on killing other Moslems also adds credence to the claim. It also adds to the perception that all Moslems are unreasonable fanatics.


The old poisoning the well canard. So typical of scapegoating Jews, as the demons that some Gentiles choose to perceive them as.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2015 10:57 am
@Foofie,
I agree. It's vicious and stupid too.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2015 04:26 pm
@Foofie,
It sounds just like something the Isralie government would do. Not so ridiculous as you claim.
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2015 10:09 pm
@izzythepush,
So now you are saying that the peace loving people's of the muslim nations are victims of the imperialist running dog Israelis, who are behind terrorist groups like Hamas and IS so they can blame Arabs....is there someone you can talk to about your problem ?
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jul, 2015 04:59 am
@RABEL222,
RABEL222 wrote:

It sounds just like something the Isralie government would do. Not so ridiculous as you claim.

For once I agree with Foof. The idea that Israel would fund ISIS belongs to the looney house.

ISIS attacks Hamas in Gaza just as they have attacked Al Qaeda in Syria: to take over the mantle of radical islamism champions. This is a classic process of the more extremist killing the less extremist -- Montagnards vs. Girondins; Bolshevics vs. Menshevics; revolutions eating their own children and all that.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Tue 21 Jul, 2015 05:17 am
@Olivier5,
Lot's of things sound loony tunes regarding Israel. Israel funding Hamas, Israeli nationalists attempting to make a deal with Nazi Germany to fight Britain, Israel giving nuclear technology to actual Nazis who were interned during WW2.

All these things happened. Let's not forget the accuracy of IS strikes on Hamas and Egyptian targets compared to the ineffectual nature of strikes on Israel.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Tue 21 Jul, 2015 05:26 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Lot's of things sound loony tunes regarding Israel. Israel funding Hamas, Israeli nationalists attempting to make a deal with Nazi Germany to fight Britain, Israel giving nuclear technology to actual Nazis who were interned during WW2.

All these things happened. Let's not forget the accuracy of IS strikes on Hamas and Egyptian targets compared to the ineffectual nature of strikes on Israel.

These things, as you described them, did not happen. Eg no Israeli nationalist could possibly try to make a deal with Nazi Germany since Israel was created AFTER the defeat and collapse of Nazi Germany...

Approximations and semi-truth are good fodder for conspiracy theories though.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Tue 21 Jul, 2015 05:40 am
@Olivier5,
Israeli nationalists existed before the formation of Israel as did American nationalists before 1776.

The Lehi (Stern Gang) of which future Israeli pm Yitzhak Shamir was a member, tried to form a deal with Nazi Germany during WW2.

Actual Nazi John Vorster was given a hero's welcome when he visited Israel and Yitzhak Shamir (him again) gave his Apartheid regime nuclear technology.

From the Wall Street Journal.

Quote:
Surveying the wreckage of a neighbor's bungalow hit by a Palestinian rocket, retired Israeli official Avner Cohen traces the missile's trajectory back to an "enormous, stupid mistake" made 30 years ago.

"Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation," says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas, a militant group that is sworn to Israel's destruction.

Instead of trying to curb Gaza's Islamists from the outset, says Mr. Cohen, Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat's Fatah. Israel cooperated with a crippled, half-blind cleric named Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, even as he was laying the foundations for what would become Hamas. Sheikh Yassin continues to inspire militants today; during the recent war in Gaza, Hamas fighters confronted Israeli troops with "Yassins," primitive rocket-propelled grenades named in honor of the cleric.


http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847

All of these things definitely did happen.
Olivier5
 
  3  
Reply Tue 21 Jul, 2015 07:05 am
@izzythepush,
BS. The word "Israeli", in modern English and in the context of this conversation, means: "a citizen of the state of Israel". It doesn't meean "Zionist", nor "anyone with a hook nose."

As for Hamas, you stated hat Osrael FUNDED them. Care to prove it?
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Tue 21 Jul, 2015 07:41 am
@Olivier5,
When all else fails use racist stereotypes in a vain attempt to smear others. It doesn't matter what nomenclature you use, the Lehi tried to collaborate with Nazi Germany. Leading members of the Lehi became Israeli politicians. Yitzhak Shamir didn't suddenly become a different person when Israel was formed.

By playing around with words you are telling an enormous lie.

Quote:
Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years.

Israel "aided Hamas directly -- the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization)," said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic Studies.

Israel's support for Hamas "was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative," said a former senior CIA official.


http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2002/06/18/Analysis-Hamas-history-tied-to-Israel/82721024445587/
Foofie
 
  2  
Reply Tue 21 Jul, 2015 01:40 pm
Commentary on radio has alluded to a very different balance of power with Iran possibly getting the "deal" from the U.S.

As the saying goes, politics makes for strange bedfellows. Meaning, I would not be surprised if Sunni Arab nations suddenly buddy up to Israel as the strongest ally in a potentially nuclear armed Iran (sometime in the future).

From the standpoint of the Palestinian concerns, their desires might be put on the back burner by Sunni nations, as they look to Israel to somehow counter a future nuclear armed Iran. In effect, Palestinian's progress to full nationhood might "be gone with the wind," for now, so to speak?

 

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