Where the religious are located

This thread is very interesting.

My sparsely populated East Texas county (Tyler Co., 125 miles NE of Houston) is pink on the map, yet I know that it's virtually 100% christian. If there are any atheists, wiccans or muslims around here, they keep a very low profile. If any county should be dark red, it would be this one. I am also very familiar with other heavily christian counties in central Texas that are pale yellow on the map. My theory is that the researchers did not, as someone suggested above, count the thousands of completely independent baptist and pentecostal churches in these southern counties - churches unaffiliated with any larger organization. The map seems to tilt toward areas where large, well-organized religious institutions predominate - Mormon Utah, Catholic Massachussetts, etc.

Any map that shows New England to be more christian than Georgia and Florida has got to be wrong!

For those who equate evangelical christianity with conservative politics, this county - as evangelical as any in the country - has NEVER voted republican in a presidential election. The only time it was even close was in 1984, when the dems nominated a woman VP candidate (Reagan came within a couple hundred votes of carrying the county). If you check the census data for Tyler County, TX you'll see there's a lot of poverty and a large percentage of african-americans, and economic issues override social issues for most of them. We'll see how Hillary does here.

I am a democrat too, but personally cannot, in good conscience, vote for a pro-choice candidate. Most of my baptist brethren are also democrats but manage to rationalize it somehow. They choose to vote their pocketbook instead of their Bible. If it's Giuliani vs Hillary I'll stay home.

Jack

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Don't you think there are issues more important than pro-life/pro-choice?

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From a pragmatic point of view, there probably are more important issues, yes, but it's an emotional issue with me and I don't want any role in it. Voting for a pro-choice candidate makes me complicit in what I consider to be an act of murder and I can't live with that.

Jack

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eltejano wrote:

From a pragmatic point of view, there probably are more important issues, yes, but it's an emotional issue with me and I don't want any role in it. Voting for a pro-choice candidate makes me complicit in what I consider to be an act of murder and I can't live with that.

Do you support the death penalty? Do you support the war in Iraq? If you're against the war in Iraq, are you against all war, even if the U.S. were attacked from a foreign power? Do you support the right of the police to use deadly force when necessary in carrying out their duties?

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IFeelFree wrote:

eltejano wrote:
From a pragmatic point of view, there probably are more important issues, yes, but it's an emotional issue with me and I don't want any role in it. Voting for a pro-choice candidate makes me complicit in what I consider to be an act of murder and I can't live with that.

Do you support the death penalty? Do you support the war in Iraq? If you're against the war in Iraq, are you against all war, even if the U.S. were attacked from a foreign power? Do you support the right of the police to use deadly force when necessary in carrying out their duties?

Very incisive, IFF.

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I do not for a moment believe that this member can know to a certainty to what extent the population of the county in which he or she resides consists of genuine adherents of specified sects of christianity, to the exclusion of any other tenet of faith, or lack thereof. I also do not doubt for a moment that this member has convinced him- or herself that he or she does know, on no better basis than what it is that he or she wishes to believe.

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This member is a 71 year-old retired construction worker and life-long resident of Woodville, Texas - a town of 2800, the seat of the County of Tyler, which consists of 900 square miles and contains about 16,000 residents - of which this member knows many, if not most, on a more or less personal level.

If you hang around the Wal-Mart parking lot in Woodville on a saturday afternoon and ask people if they are christians, this member will pay you $100 in cold cash for each one who answers in the negative - at least until his social security check is exhausted. Laughing

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Quote:

Do you support the death penalty? Do you support the war in Iraq? If you're against the war in Iraq, are you against all war, even if the U.S. were attacked from a foreign power? Do you support the right of the police to use deadly force when necessary in carrying out their duties?

Sometimes, as a mortal being, I support things I shouldn't - like a carnal lust for revenge when a friend or family member is killed or injured by a criminal. But I can tell you what the biblical position - which to me is the ultimate moral authority - is (at least from my sectarian perspective) on these issues. I won't provide scriptural documentation at this time, but will try to do so if requested.

- I don't think Jesus supports the death penalty and christians shouldn't either.

- Jesus acknoweledges the inevitability of war. As near as I can figure, war is justified only in self-defense, when all diplomatic efforts have been exhausted and if the cause is righteous and just. Obviously the war in Iraq does not meet those criteria.

- The use of deadly force, by an officer or a citizen, in self-defense is a little more complicated. Obviously, my gut feeling is to answer "yes, of course." But, having grown-up in a gun culture, my thinking is likely warped on this one. After all, Jesus told Peter to lay-down his sword, which has always worried me. I guess the right answer would be a strong, unequivocal "maybe" Smile

- and only a minimal amount of force after all other alternatives have been exhausted. Perhaps He wants us to turn the other cheek even in the face of death - I'm not sure.

Finally, abortion is an emotional, gut issue for me. I am horrified and apalled by it - but no use to whip a dead horse. We fought that battle with all our might for 30 years and we lost in a fair and democratic process. It's the law of the land. There's nothing more we can do except weep for the victims and pray for the nation. I can't do anything about it - but I am not required to participate in it or support candidates who do.

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That member apparently doesn't acknowledge several things--such as that people may well say they are christians just because they have always said so; that people may say they are christians just so that creeps in Walmart parking lots don't bug them about a subject to which they are indifferent. I suspect that it is highly unlikely that that member personally knows, intimately enough to speak with authority, more than 8,000 residents of that county. But since that member originally specified "virtually 100% christian," that member would need to know very nearly 16,000 people sufficiently well to say with confidence that they truly are christians.

Of course, since that member tells us with confidence what Jesus acknowledges, we should just shut up and listen, huh? And especially since that member is 71 years old--everyone knows that all you have to do is hang around long enough, and you'll know everything.

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WalMart?

Does Woodville have a Starbucks?

And welcome to a2k, eltejano. This may be the last time I spell your name in full. Smile

I'm sure if you stick around, you will have many interesting dialogues.

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Quote:

.... we should just shut up and listen, huh?

Did I come across that way? If so, please accept my apologies. I try to be polite and respectful - but sometimes I fail to make myself clear.

With considerable difficulty, I managed to find religious demographic data for my county. I was wrong about the total population - 16,646 in 1990, but a 25% increase in the 2000 census. The data confirms my informal observations - 74% christian, adjusted for unaffiliated believers, and 61% actually members of a church. Three people are members of non-christian religious groups - three! My own denomination, southern baptist, includes about half the total population of the county.

This is a "dry" county - alcohol is illegal. Most of Texas, geographically, is "dry" - that's usually a pretty good indicator of evangelical majorities
The cities and larger towns are usually "wet." That doesn't mean we aren't closet drinkers, though. Smile

Quote:

American Baptist Association, The Evangelical Protestant 82
Assemblies of God Evangelical Protestant 601
Bahá'í Other Theology 3
Baptist Missionary Association of America Evangelical Protestant 159
Catholic Church Catholic 557
Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) Mainline Protestant 73
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, The Other Theology 320
Church of the Nazarene Evangelical Protestant n.a. n.a.
Churches of Christ Evangelical Protestant 384
Episcopal Church Mainline Protestant 75
Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod Evangelical Protestant 67
Pentecostal Church of God Evangelical Protestant 35
Primitive Baptist Churches--Old Line Evangelical Protestant 1 n.a.
Seventh-day Adventist Church Evangelical Protestant 62
Southern Baptist Convention Evangelical Protestant 9,630
United Methodist Church, The Mainline Protestant 4 767
Totals (Unadjusted)*: 12,815
Total (Adjusted)**: 15,453

The population of this county (or equivalent) in 1990 was 16,646; in 2000 it was 20,871. The total population changed 25.4%. The unadjusted adherent totals of the religious groups listed above (12,815) include 61.4% of the total population in 2000. The adjusted total adherents (15,453) include 74.0% of the population.

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When you say "dry county" does that mean it's illegal to buy it in a "wet county", bring it to your home and drink? Or does it mean it's illegal to sell it in the county?

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They have possession limits - thank goodness Laughing

- I haven't checked in years, but I think you can have a six-pack of beer, a fifth of hard spirits and a gallon of wine in your possession. This isn't really enforced, though, and never has been in my recollection. If it were, about half of us would be in the slammer! Laughing

Interestingly, when it comes-up for a vote the dries always carry it in landslide - meaning that many beer drinkers don't want it legally sold here. I feel that way myself - we just don't want things to change. I think it's called "provincialism" by sociologists and very common in lower-educated, rural areas.

The college town of Nagodoches, 80 miles north of us, votes wet every spring when the students are in town. Then the locals vote it dry again every fall when they leave! But few stores carry it because it angers the locals.

Jack

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Do you actually have to go into a closet to drink?

Is coffee OK?

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LOL!!

Some guys might have to because our women tend to not approve - my wife wouldn't touch it, and doesn't approve, but I am the master of.....never mind Laughing

I hope y'all have sense of humor here - that one person - who calls me "the member" (I guess that could be complimentary in some contexts) - doesn't seem to joke much. Is that a woman?

When anybody drives-up to visit, my wife runs around making sure there are no beer cans visible anywhere! Why go to the Amazon to study primitive cultures - just come on down to East Texas. Laughing

Jack

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"That one person" jokes all the time. "That one person" also doesn't appreciate people who are peddling bullshit. You stated that virtually 100% of the people in your country are Christians. The data you provided yourself disproves that contention.

Perhaps this could be a lesson to you to be careful about what claims you make.

As to referring to you as "the member," that is simply a courteous formula. I don't know if you are male or female (you had not yet begun to "sign" your posts "Jack" when i adopted that method). The other acceptable formula is to use "he or she" or to use "s/he." I prefer to ignore the gender issue and just use "the member." Of course, if had wished to be really nasty, i could have written: "He/she/it claims . . ."

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eltejano wrote:

I am a democrat too, but personally cannot, in good conscience, vote for a pro-choice candidate. Most of my baptist brethren are also democrats but manage to rationalize it somehow. They choose to vote their pocketbook instead of their Bible. If it's Giuliani vs Hillary I'll stay home.

Jack

Jack,

My prediction is Gore vs Romney.

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Setanta wrote:

"That one person" jokes all the time. "That one person" also doesn't appreciate people who are peddling bullshit. You stated that virtually 100% of the people in your country are Christians. The data you provided yourself disproves that contention.

Perhaps this could be a lesson to you to be careful about what claims you make.

As to referring to you as "the member," that is simply a courteous formula. I don't know if you are male or female (you had not yet begun to "sign" your posts "Jack" when i adopted that method). The other acceptable formula is to use "he or she" or to use "s/he." I prefer to ignore the gender issue and just use "the member." Of course, if had wished to be really nasty, i could have written: "He/she/it claims . . ."

Go easy on tex, Set. Us old folks often suffer from mental impairment and Jack's even older than me.

BTW, you're gettin' up there, too, ain't ya, Set?

Or, have you forgotten?

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Thought I had better attribute the source of the data I quoted. Note that - something I had overlooked before - african-american churches are not included in these stats! Most of them are independent baptist, but were never affiliated with the national baptist conventions for reasons you can probably guess.

Since the county is 11.3% AA (which I thought was more like 15-20%), and the overwhelming majority go to church, that would increase the total of christians substantially - perhaps by 10%, which would put it in the mid-eighties. So , my estimate of "nearly 100%" wasn't really that far off.

Quote:

*The "Unadjusted Totals" come from the 1990 and 2000 data collected by representatives of the Association of Statisticians of American Religious Bodies (ASARB). While quite comprehensive, this data excludes most of the historically African-American denominations and some other major groups. As a result, these numbers will be an underestimate of the total adherence rate, particularly in areas with a large African-American population. The 2000 data included 149 religious groups and the final results are published in Religious Congregations and Membership in the United States 2000. Copyright © 2002, All rights reserved. The 1990 data included 132 groups and the final results are published in Churches and Church Membership in the United States 1990 Copyright © 1990, All rights reserved. Published by Glenmary Research Center, 1312 Fifth Ave., North, Nashville, TN 37208. www.glenmary.org/grc [More information on the data collection]

***********

Hi Neologist (whatever that is Smile

)

Starbucks? Surely you jest! We're lucky to get a decent cuppa coffe at the convenience store. Have you ever travelled down this way? Every Texas town has a Wal-Mart - uhoh - MOST texas towns have a Wal-Mart. It's an beloved institution around here.

**********
Real Life - Howdy!

Well, Gore IS a southern baptist you know - but so was Brother Bill. I wish I could get over my extreme, admittedly almost irrational, aversion to abortion - because I really do rather like those guys in every other way. I know they are supporting it only for political reasons, because their northern base demands it, but it's a difficult issue for me to cope with. It's just plain wrong - a terrible national tragedy!

Gore, however, has gotten pretty far out in left field on the environmental thing, don't you think? Maybe even a little kookie - remember that beard and all that? I don't think they'll nominate him - it's gonna be Hillary. My favorite, Joe Lieberman, isn't even running. I wish Evan Bayh from Indiana would run - I could really get behind him too.

Romney is a flip-flopper. No principles.

Jack

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If you think that "mid-eighties" is "not far off" what you were pleased to call "virtually 100%"--you're gonna get ripped up right regular at this site.

Good luck, Bubba.

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