Do you believe in Magic, or the Supernatural?

Potentially an interesting topic !

I believe that we define as "supernatural" is just another way of saying that we do not understand the underlying mechanisms.
Take the brain for example, about which we no very little,- but even viewed as an "electro chemical device" it seems likely to be prone to "field effects" which might be the basis for "telepathy" etc. Or knowing now that "time" is a psychological phenomenon there is no scientific reason why "non linearity" is not possible.

As Ruper Sheldrake has found out, what makes study of these phenomena problematic is basically consensus, and "orthodoxy".
It is true that many crackpots and quasi-religious movements are attracted to "the miraculous" but that does not make such phenomena intrinsically unworthy of study. It may be the case, however, that we must revise our concepts of what constitutes "evidence" since at present this assumes an "objective" reality.

That's an interesting reply Fresco, because it relates to something I was thinking when I wrote the original post. Namely, that the naturalistic view doesn't seem to have a mechanism for recognizing the supernatural. If something seems supernatural to a purely naturalistic person, then that person is likely to say that the observed phenomon is simply not yet understood, rather than to say that it is supernatural.

Conversely, a supernatural viewpoint allows anything to be perceived as supernatural, even the ordinary.

In this case, my original question relates more to the classic definition of the supernatural in a philosophical sense, rather than to a "determination" of what *is* supernatural from the naturalistic perspective.

In other words, I'm primarily interested in understanding the reason why people make fundamentally different choices in viewpoints, rather than in determining if something is "really" supernatural or not. Because regardless of the determination of what *is*, there still seems to be a choice occurring, and apparently for arbitrary reasons (at least no reasoning that I can identify).

By the way, I assume from your reply that you do not believe in the supernatural, but instead prefer to see things as simply unexplained by present knowledge. Is this approximately correct?

Best Regards,

Over recent discussions with a quantum physics mathematician, he goes on to explain that all things can be explained through math. Math is the key to unlocking secrets of the universe. Personally, I don't really understand algebra let alone the formulas that explain the delicate fabric of the space and time continuum, but his theory makes sense. Let us define Supernatural...

1.Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.
2.Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces.
3.Of or relating to a deity.
4.Of or relating to the immediate exercise of divine power; miraculous.
5.Of or relating to the miraculous

If occurances happen based on the above definitions, can they be explained by advanced mathematics? What is considered magic? a miracle?

Fresco makes a very interesting point in that the brain which has not barely begun to be mapped or understood. It has been gossiped that if those unused areas of the brain were to be "tapped" that humans would be able to communicate telepathically or be able to perform telekinesis. Admittedly no one has ever tested all the tens of billions of neurons in a given brain. You've certainly got a few spares; otherwise no one would recover from a stroke. But attempts to map out the cerebral cortex, the center of the higher mental functions, have not found large areas that don't do anything. But assuming that a part or parts of the brain are stimulated in an individual and now this individual has the ability to see the future, can this be attributed to an individual talent such as persons with an affinity for golf or singing, or would this be a "miracle"?

The bible gives us several references to Jesus performing miracles, but what if I'm an atheist? Would the parting of the Red Sea still be a "miracle" or the evidence of a creative and talented storyteller?

Perhaps to define miracles for each individual, it would depend on ones beliefs, experiences, and education?

rosborne

I believe there are "unexplained phenomena" that others might call "supernatural", but I do not rule out the possibility that events/observations can be "willed" by observers.

3octopuss3

Yes, I think mathematical modelling is particularly important in directing observation. "Reality" can be structured in many ways and non-orthodox observational modes are perhaps the key to "the unexplained".

actually there is evidence:
-you are alive.
-in a living world.
-the word 'nature' refers to 'life'
- all that we have ever expierienced is life, parts of a greater life, and remnents of life.
Moreover I would argue that not only do we know we are alive in a living world (based on our physical senses which come together in 'the mind') and that life is all we "know", all we anyone has ever experienced --in fact life is all there is- The word "nature encompasses all life, meaning "all there is" Thus the word "supernatural" is an oxymoronic impossibility--nothing is seperate or"super" from natural.

Interesting question, 3o3.

Is belief, experience, and education a factor?

Can we seperate the physical world from the Spiritual world? Seems a natural part of my being knowing the supernatural or "spritual" exist.

We've only begun understanding the natural world, and possible answers for miracles and the superconcious may not be explainable for eons.

Thanks San,

Even if we could know..
Had the keys to unlock the unknown...
Should we?

If we did, how would it better us here and now?

One major question is, is there life on other planets?

Let's say there is. Now what? Is it a miracle? Will it advance our current ways of life? Will hope be renewed amongst the masses and everyone on the planet fall at the feet of the Lord? (no disrespect if JA is not your God)

Does it really matter?

I think the world would be a better place without the word "believe."

I think the world would be a much, much better place without the expression "believe in."

Hi, Rosborne.

None of this was directed at you. This thread has the potential to be a very interesting one.

Just saw an opportune time to mention one of my pet peeves.

There's research from a while back about research done by Persinger. In a nutshell: many people are prone to low level seizures, and this makes them hallucinate/have spiritual experiences/etc. if they are in situations where they can be triggered.

One girl thought she was being shagged by jesus christ... seizures were triggered at night by her electric alarm clock that was situated 10cm from her head...

Persinger took measurements of electrical activity in "haunted" houses, and noticed anomalies, and dug further, noticing that the wiring was fucked up.... triggered seizures in sensitive people...

He built a device-- a helmet that acts as a variable electromagnet-- that causes the wearer to have amazing spiritual experiences, see ghosts, dead relatives, etc.

Interesting work... and it explains where people get their wacked out ideas.

For everyone's amusement:
My favourite one:


Experiences of spiritual visitation and impregnation: potential induction by frequency-modulated transients from an adjacent clock.

Persinger MA, Koren SA.

Department of Psychology, Laurentian University, Ontario, Canada.

A left-handed Roman Catholic female adolescent with a history of early brain trauma reported nightly visitations by a sentient being. During one episode she experienced vibrations of the bed, an external presence along the left side that moved into her body, inner vaginal (not clitoral) and uterine sensations, and the sense of being impregnated by a force she attributed to the Holy Spirit. After the latter experience she felt an invisible baby superimposed upon her left shoulder. Analyses of the measurements for magnetic anomalies within her bedroom indicated an electric clock about 20 cm from her head while she slept. The complex form of the 4 microT magnetic pulses generated by the clock was similar to shapes that evoke electrical seizures in epileptic rats and sensitive humans.

(HAHA)

So everything can be explained by science? safety in numbers? 1..2..10cm...

wench
I had never heard any of this before. Do you know any websites about this?

Don't get me wrong, these are all interesting ideas, but nobody seems to be addressing my first question: Why do people choose the particular belief structure they choose?

The basic points which seem to be floating around here. all seem to revolve around quantifying the supernatural (either the ability to do so, or not, depending on the validity of observation and the definition of "knowing"). These are interesting topics to be sure, but do they really have any bearing on the first question? If they do, then I appologize because I don't see the relationship yet.

If everyone is bored with the first question then that's fine, keep on with this other stuff. It's pretty good too

Thanks everyone

Edgar I can provide with a few more studies I can find relevant to this...aside from that try the uni that's been mentioned or pubmed. Hope that helped.

Geophysical variables and behavior: XCVI. "Experiences" attributed to Christ and Mary at Marmora, Ontario, Canada may have been consequences of environmental electromagnetic stimulation: implications for religious movements.

Suess LA, Persinger MA.

Laurentian University, Sudbury, Ontario, Canada.

Since the year 1992 individuals and groups of people have reported religious experiences near Marmora, Ontario, Canada. The experiences, attributed to Christ or Mary, have occurred near the top of a hill adjacent to an open pit magnetite mine that has been accumulating about 15 million gallons of water per month for more than a decade. During the period between 1992 and 1997 epicentres for local seismic events moved significantly closer to this site. Most of the messages attributed to spiritual beings by "sensitive" individuals occurred one or two days after increased global geomagnetic activity. We suggest that conditions produced by local geophysical and geological properties created the odd lights and induced physiological changes within the thousands of people who visited the area. Direct measurements indicated that weak (0.1 microTesla to 1 microTesla) complex magnetic fields, the temporal patterns of which were similar to the experimental fields we have employed to evoke the sensed presence and altered states within the laboratory, may have been generated within the area.

Geophysical variables and behavior: XCII. Experimental elicitation of the experience of a sentient being by right hemispheric, weak magnetic fields: interaction with temporal lobe sensitivity.

Cook CM, Persinger MA.

Laurentian University, Sudbury, Ontario, Canada.

We tested the hypothesis that proportionally more people with above average numbers of complex partial epileptic-like experiences before the experiment would report a proximal presence during applications of a weak (1 microTesla), frequency-modulated magnetic field over the right hemisphere. Each of 16 subjects sat in a darkened, quiet room and was exposed for 20 min. to complex fields, applied through a helmet, either along the right hemisphere or across both hemispheres. None of the 8 subjects with below average scores reported a presence during the applications of the magnetic fields while 75% and 60% of the 8 subjects with above average scores reported a presence during right hemispheric and bilateral stimulation, respectively.

rosborne

People do not "choose a particular belief structure". Our basic mindset is acquired through socialzation and language and is tempered by "experience". Different cultures have different views as to the status of "magic".

Our Western concept of "causality" seems to be an instinctive culmination of the maturation process, but causality itself remains resistant to definition although spectacularly "successful" in this technological era. However we resort to other "explanatory modes" besides causality, such as telelology (X happens to serve a purpose), correlation (X happens when Y happens) and coherence (X makes sense because my world view demands it).

Where each of us stands with respect to "supernatural events" to some extent depends on our technical understanding of these modes of explanation and can differ as our lives progress.

Frank's peeve about "belief" is of course vacuous since the explanation of "events" is ultimately based on the choice of axioms we use to define our window of observation. Axioms are ultimately "beliefs".

It would be a sad world if all the magic were missing. I don't "believe" in magic if you mean a young man with a scar on his forehead who can make things happen with a twig.

I do believe that there is more to life than we know and that there is more to life than our science, in its present form and present level of experimentation, can investigate. Anecdotal evidence may be the only thing that will ever describe supernatural events.

I think that there will be continue to be a convergence between the supernatural and quantum physics. I also believe that there is a universal force, chi, which can be tapped. When science can fully explain gravity, electricity and magnetism AND how they relate to each other.... then maybe we'll be getting close.

As to your request that I explain how I came to whatever belief structure I have... for myself, I didn't choose a belief structure. It evolved as I found that science couldn't or wouldn't explain everything... that there are supernatural events, coincidences and synchronicities, lots of physical manifestions, which defy explanation. When I first heard about quantum physics about fifteen years ago, it all began to make sense. There seem to be some things that are connected without any cause & effect, physical mechanism, or other scientifically explainable force.

Sometimes science research says we can't test for something, therefore we'll ignore it. I'm not willing to ignore it. I may not be able to explain it, but if I find it interesting enough, then I will pursue an explanation even though it is difficult, perhaps impossible, to do so.

Over the years I have seen and heard several odd things which defy explanation. I don't believe that there must be a cognizant force, a god if you will, which is behind any of it, but I do believe that things are more connected than we realize, and that they are connected in odder ways that we can fathom.

I also think that the human brain... probably most mammalian brains... have a greater capacity to effect change than by thinking and creating something from thought (which, in itself, is an amazing concept). I've seen people focus and gather their mind's energy in ways that seem nearly magical. We are simply amazing creatures.

Fresco, Piffka here here!

Fresco,

I use the word "choose" loosely. If you prefer the word "acquire" then that works for me as well. And I agree that environment, and innate ability to understand certain technological concepts may lead to a particular choice, but what about people that grow up in the same families and make different choices. And what about scientists who clearly undertand the scientific method, still choose a non-naturalistic viewpoint?

Piffka, I think you've demonstrated another cause for choice: Pure desire ("It would be a sad world if all the magic were missing.") Clearly you are strongly motivated to choose a world view which accepts something "beyond science", even if that something is undefined.

You may not call it "magic" but it seems to me to be a longing for mysticism of some sort. Given that, then maybe you can answer a different question, why is it that the world would be a sad place if the "magic" were missing? What is the "magic" you're referring to?

Observing quantum entanglement, or a skilled ballet performance, may seem magical in one sense, but they are a far cry from seeing a fountain pen turn into a dove and fly away. There are clearly things which people believe that supreme (supernatural) beings can do which exceed any reasonable explanation of science.

To me, "magic" and "lack of understanding" are not the same thing. I love knowing that there is more to the world than I yet know, and that there will always be things to discover. But I don't think of these things as "magic". Perhaps we are in agreement on this. Can you confirm or clarify?

Thanks,

Don't need to worry about supernatural when we can't even understand what reality is all about.

Bullshit!

People often "choose" to "believe" the things they "believe" -- and most appear to choose all the individual components of their belief systems -- although often they choose a "belief system" already a composite.




The predictive value of the non-cohesive elements of the cognitive processes which are inferred by your arguments actually argue, if anything, against such a modality. It may seem reasonable to synthesize using that kind of gradation, because at first glance the analystics seem to point in the direction you seem intent on going -- but if inspected open-mindedly, it is almost instantly revealed as an intellectual nostrum of virtually no use.





Get your head out of wherever you've got it stuck.

My peeve is anything but vacuous -- except to someone without the intellect to appreciate it.

If you'd care to discuss it rather than simply judge it, I'd be delighted to do so.