A hypothesis

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Firstly, I'd like to ask the moderators not to move this to the religion forum. It would be overtaken by ratbags.

I was thinking about how the more conservative of the ratbags defend the concept of creationism with such zeal. My thoughts started with something I read in Richard Dawkins book The God Delusion. There's a section where he discusses how we perceive the world we live in, and relates it to the fact that our brains have evolved for us to survive in what he calls 'the middle world'.
Right now your probably sitting at your computer which is on a desk. As humans we see and feel the desk at solid matter. If you've studied any science at all, then you'll know that at the microscopic level, atoms are mostly empty space. But our brains and senses, are not able to perceive it as empty space, because we've evolved in a world (the middle world) where nothing is too big, or too small-nothing moves too fast or too slow. As humans we're quite limited in our perceptions. (my explanation of his reasoning is limited, and for that I apologize).

Somehow, this led me to start considering time and space. Regardless of the origins of the universe we live in, the void has always been here. For all of eternity. It got me thinking that both concepts are very difficult to deal with. An endless void, and an endless eternity. As humans, we are born (our beginning), have a life of an undetermined number of years, and then we die (an end). We perceive the passage of time in seconds, minutes, hours, days, months, years all of which have a beginning, and an end. We might watch a movie for entertainment, it has a beginning, and an end. So for those with the weaker minds, and generally I see the more fundamentalist the belief, the weaker the mind, they need a beginning (creation) and an end (judgement day) to provide an anchor in the middle of the eternal void of space and time. Without it, they become a meaningless speck in a universe that doesn't care a whit that they ever existed, and that's what frightens them the most.

I apologize for my lack of articulation in describing my thought process, but it's late and I'm tired.

Confused

Edit [Moderator]: Moved from General to Philosophy & Debate.

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Ok, I'll bite.... what the hell is a ratbag?

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Regardless of your disdain for religion, this topic really does belong in either the Religion or the Philosophy forum. While there are some strict Christian who hold radical creationist dogma here on A2K, they are the exception. Far, far more of our regular members regard themselves as atheists or agnostics. The Abrahamic faiths hold that the perceptual universe as one of multiplicity finite in time/space, with a human-like God in ultimate charge of the outfit. This sort of concept can also be found in many non-Abrahamic religions, but not all.

Religions founded in East Asia, for instance, take a very different tack. Buddhism, Hinduism, and Taoism conceive of the universe as infinite, without beginning or ending. Hinduism has evolved over its long history multiple Gods reflecting various attributes of the central driving force of reality, and based upon a cyclic events. Neither Buddhism nor philosophical Taoism have any "Gods" that come close to the Abrahamic definition, yet they remain even today a vibrant and important part of the world's religious community. Don't regard all religions, or religious people as being the same.

There are as may "weak minded" atheists and agnostics in the world as there are those who confine themselves to narrow dogma. Some of the most brilliant minds find solace in their religious faith and beliefs.

BTW, not long ago I read a similar description of how we inhabit the middle world between the macrocosm and microcosm. Sorry, but the title and author presently escape me. The book was written by an imminent scientist and wasn't religious in anyway. The hypothesis fits quite well with Buddhism's fundamental views on the nature of perceptual and ultimate reality. Once this senior moment has passed, I might recall the title and author.

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Asherman wrote:

While there are some strict Christian who hold radical creationist dogma here on A2K, they are the exception.

I agree that the fanatics (including fanatical Muslims and atheists) are simply a loud, vocal minority.

Quote:

Far, far more of our regular members regard themselves as atheists or agnostics.

I think that is arguable. I doubt that there are any more atheist or agnostic members than there Christian and Muslim fanatics. I suspect that whatever discrepancy there is in the numbers is negligible. I rather think the majority of the members are Christians, and simply don't feel the need to defend or argue about what they believe, or consider it a matter which is not anyone else's business.

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Wilso, I don't think I've ever directly replied to one of your posts, so here goes.

You seem to be a very intelligent, interesting person, but sometimes I have a problem seeing past veils that get in the way.

I have always wondered....Why do you seems to hate the concept of people having a belief in God?

Oh sure, I understand there are plenty of annoying, ignorant people out there who either push religion, or preach, or whose behavior in not in sync with what they say they believe. Others who can not reason well, or get stuck repeating the same thing....the list can go on. I've gotten infuriated with people both here and in real life myself.

Also, there is no denying that religion as caused a lot of pain and suffering and death in the world, in the name of God.

But, it bothers me that you lump every person who has a belief in the same pot.

I consider myself a rational person, don't mind when it's pointed out when I'm wrong, am awed by the infinite universe and science, I believe in evolution....yet believe in God. No, not the God of the bible, not a God that people were formed in an image of....in brief, I believe in a creating power, and for lack of a better word I call that creating power God.

I don't believe there was a beginning or an end, just changes in energy. I believe our souls are energy, and we survive the death of our body.

So please stop putting all people who believe in God in one basket. Not all believers belong to a religion, not all believers met your percepiton of what a believer is.

Just a thought.

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Chai wrote:

So please stop putting all people who believe in God in one basket. Not all believers belong to a religion, not all believers met your percepiton of what a believer is.

This is why I need a definition of ratbag before I can comment. I'm not so sure that Wilso doesn't include anyone who isn't an avowed atheist in the ratbag bag.

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Wilson, Here's my personal observation about us humans. You've hit the main one on the proverbial head; namely that our perceptions about our environment is very limited. That's the biggest handicap humans have.

On a larger scale, we are descended from the same family as primates, and have through time developed a pretty good sense of ourselves.

Trying to relate space-time to our personal development is quite difficult, simply because of our limited capacity at perception. Most humans born and die with what they perceived to be their world; some don't ever leave their small village during their whole life.

Those of us lucky enough to travel this planet have been privy to see much, but I still assume it's a very small portion of what "this" world offers.

Much of human perception grows within the environment in which we live; rich countries have an advantage of education, technology and travel.

The limitation we humans have no matter how much advantages we may have is simply that we humans direct our interest into defined areas of interest. Some things like religion are imposed on our minds at an early age, and that's part of the limitations placed on our way of thinking.

I believe all things are relative; we exists in an environment that influences how we live our life. We just need to be thankful if our lifespan is greater than the average.

Life remains a mystery.

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I would like to answer about the eternal void
written in the hypothesis of Mr. Wilso.

Many questions were asked in the ancient Hindu
texts about the nature of Parama Atama (infinite
soul, or Almighty) and Atma (soul). In the olden
days, Gurus used to put these questions to
disciples to test their knowledge.

What is the constituent material of Almighty? All
created materials are subject to decay and
annihilation, Almighty is above the influence of
decay and annihilation. He is eternal.

Then is Almighty a void? In terms of material
characteristics, Almighty is void (Soonya).

Can this lead to the logic that Almighty is not
there? No. Almighty is there. He is consciousness,
the infinite consciousness. The Atma which is a
finite piece of Almighty, according to Advaita
Vedanta - the personal consciousness. Soul was
created in the likeness of Infinite Soul.

Since Atma is only a minute piece of Almighty, is
it subjected to annihilation? No. Atma is also
eternal.

How can the finite soul understand the working of
the Infinite Soul?

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VSPrasad wrote:

I would like to answer about the eternal void
written in the hypothesis of Mr. Wilso.

Many questions were asked in the ancient Hindu
texts about the nature of Parama Atama (infinite
soul, or Almighty) and Atma (soul). In the olden
days, Gurus used to put these questions to
disciples to test their knowledge.

Why stop there, why not go all the way back to cave man and ask them to tell us the meaning of life. Wait, wait, no...we need to go back farther. We should ask the amoeba. We need to devise some kind of a magic 8 ball that is filled with amoeba which can answer all our questions about life -- because obviously, the farther back you know, the less "information pollution" there is.

Quote:

What is the constituent material of Almighty? All
created materials are subject to decay and
annihilation, Almighty is above the influence of
decay and annihilation. He is eternal.

The first error in your logic is that you start from the assumption that the Almighty exists. Second, you make the assumption that Mr.Bruce Almighty is above the influence of decay and annihilation. This would require you to be all knowing and therefore...omg...YOU are almighty? You impostor, how dare you insult God by impersonating him!!

Quote:

Then is Almighty a void? In terms of material
characteristics, Almighty is void (Soonya).

Hahaha, this is probably the most retarded example of fallacious logic I have ever seen. You obviously want to reach the conclusion that Bruce is Void. However, instead of giving some made up reasons, you simply say "Then, is Almighty Void?" in some not-so-sly attempt to trick the reader into thinking that you have already presented the argument, when in fact, you just jumped straight to the conclusion. You are REALLY stupid!!

Quote:

Can this lead to the logic that Almighty is not
there? No. Almighty is there. He is consciousness,
the infinite consciousness. The Atma which is a
finite piece of Almighty, according to Advaita
Vedanta - the personal consciousness. Soul was
created in the likeness of Infinite Soul.

Blither, blather, boil and bubble--
your mind is full of oil and rubble.

Quote:

Since Atma is only a minute piece of Almighty, is
it subjected to annihilation? No. Atma is also
eternal.

How can the finite soul understand the working of
the Infinite Soul?

It's a wonder someone of your intellectual incapacity is even capable of hitting keys in a non-random order. Are you like one of those super monkeys that escaped from Bell labs after typing a full paragraph of actual words [albeit nonsensical] ?

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Wilso,

You (and Dawkins) have re-articulated Macbeth's famous lines,

Quote:

Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

which captures the fear of insignificance of the ego with respect to the "void".

There are two solutions:

1. Negation of "the void" by means of its closure by "a deity". (The theistic solution).
2. Dissipation of the ego as part of the void "in this life" thereby prematurely pre-empting "fear" (The Buddhist solution)

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There is another "solution" to this putative "problem," as well. That is to accept that one is a poor player, and to accept the final curtain. One needn't burden oneself with either the theistic, or the buddhist mumbo-jumbo.

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isnt the middle world the best?

im obsessed with thinking about infinity and zero, it might sound wierd, but i cant decide whether they both exist or not.

zero? infinity? absolute nothing or neverending? both of those suck!

maybe this universe is what we get when infinite meets nothing.
Im lovin my super-scientific talk Razz

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rat·bag
Pronunciation: 'rat-"bag
Function: noun
chiefly Australian : a stupid, eccentric, or disagreeable person

I generally use ratbag in the eccentric context and reserve drop kick for stupid or disagreeable personages.

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According to my definition of ratbag Gus would fit the bill entirely. Eccentric but likeable.

Wilso's definition seems to differ from mine.

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dadpad wrote:

According to my definition of ratbag Gus would fit the bill entirely. Eccentric but likeable.

Wilso's definition seems to differ from mine.

It's the international influence on me Very Happy

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are thoughts energy? then wouldnt creating an idea be sorta like creating energy?

ZOMG I SOLVED RELIGION AND PERPETUAL ENERGY PROBLEMZ!

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The Explication Of Universal Boundless Eternality

Chapter 1: OOO it's big and long

Chapter 2: Rudimentary Measurement - Pick Up Sticks

Chapter 3: You are here - X marks the spot

Chapter 4: Thinking Music - Twinkle twinkle little star

Chapter 5: Now you're not - Epitome

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Chai wrote:

Wilso...I have always wondered....Why do you seems to hate the concept of people having a belief in God?...

Did Little Willy ever answer this? Very Happy

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I hear about microcosm and macrocosm alot, and it got me thinking about the question what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?

i mean wouldnt they just meet in the middle?

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baddog1 wrote:

Chai wrote:
Wilso...I have always wondered....Why do you seems to hate the concept of people having a belief in God?...

Did Little Willy ever answer this?

How can anyone look at all the f@cking crap going on in the world today, most of it motivated by religious delusion, and even ask this question? Even 90% of the complete fruitcakes on this site are theists.

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A hypothesis

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