A hypothesis

Wilso, I think you have outlined one reason people believe in gods, but I think there are many more. Some people have many reasons of different types, some have maybe just one strong reason. Some are not even aware of a reason, they have never contemplated the issue, and just believe what they were told as children.

The logic that lead me to atheism in the first place was trying to imagine what the universe would look like if no gods had ever existed. I couldn't see any differences between that, and my observations of the real universe. Most importantly, a universe without gods would still include all the things that are supposed to convince me to keep an open mind, such as unexplained phenomena, near-death experiences, and the most important of all - religion.

Well, respectfully, that's not what I asked.

I'm not talking about religion. I said a belief in God.

I don't belong to any religion, at this point in my life, I'd never consider joining one.

I do personally, believe in God. or in my mind I refer to a a Creator. Not a Creator that took 7 days and made bears and possums and people, but one that, well, created, initiated, then left to its own devices to evolve.

Anyway, that's off the point. The point is, not all people who believe in a power that does whatever it is they believe this power does belong to a religion.

However, you seem angry at the concept of a person, any person, even having a personal belief that he/she does not impose/inflict on anyone else.

So, do you have anger toward people that believe in a God(s), or is it just anger toward believers who belong to a particular religion, or is it towards someone who belongs to any religion?

Might seem like a small, or insignificant point to you, but I get frustrated when I'm lumped in with all the "90% that are deluded by religion" as you say, when I don't even adhere to any particular code of conduct except what I feel is right for myself.

Feelin the Love... :wink:

I've posted this before, but I'll do it again for the slow witted. The most tested and proved law is science is the first law of thermal dynamics. Energy can't be created, it can't be destroyed, it can only be converted from one form to another. So here's the choice.

ALL of the energy that currently exists in the universe has existed for all eternity.

OR

An omnipotent, all knowing, immortal, magical god has existed for all eternity, and he/she/it spoke all the energy in the universe into existence.

It might be very convenient, but it's more likely to be a huge pile of crap.

And so....you hate a particular person....because they have that belief....and don't bother you or try to make you believe the same thing....and don't belong to any religion?

It makes no sense that you would hate me, for instance, for saying here I have a certain belief. I'm so much more than that.

You would hate me because I have a belief, that if you were to know me personally, you would never know about, because it would probably never come up in conversation? You would negate all the other things about me as a person, and hate me because of a privately held belief?

BTW, I understand thermal dynamics, and that energy can't be created, can't be destroyed, can only be converted. Perhaps what you are calling that energy, I call the Creator. Not some outside force, but the energy itself.

How can you hate me over that?

I don't hate you. I hate what religion makes people do, and how it is used as an excuse for some of the most foul behaviour. If it makes you feel better about your beliefs to denigrate my rationality, I can live with that.

I'm not trying to denigrate anything about you.

In fact, what I've been trying to do is point out to you how it might be seen that you are trying to denigrate others belief.

Again...you are lumping people who belong to a religion together with many, many people who simple have a belief in God.

That is what I find distressing. If you want to claim hatred toward religion, people who belong to a religion, then say so.

You often say negative things about those who have a belief in a diety, period. Belief in a diety does not equal religion. If you have a problem with organized religion, that's up to you, but please don't make your parameters so broad that you include those many people that believe in God, but don't belong to a religion.

Denegrate...I'm glad you used that word, because in fact that is the exact feeling I get from you when I'm included in a group I don't belong to.

Yes, I'll admit, it's simply a difference in words, but religion, and a person with belief in God are 2 separate things, and it's denegrating to join us together.

If you want to be rational, choose your words toward this more carefully Wilso.

Of course, energy is a manifestation of God that would make both infinite. The implication is that everything is only a manifestation of God. I use the word "manifestation" here because there are two religious points of view represented. The Abrahamic folks generally take the position that the perceptual universe and all within it are separate, finite creations that exist apart from God. The Buddhist position, my position is that nothing can be "apart" from God ever; the perceptual notion that things exist separately is only illusory.

In any case, Chai's faith in her notions of God are not seriously challenged by your posing the conservation of energy challenge.

exactly.

Reading a book awhile back about jewish folklore, I was struck by what this rabbi said....

"God is not in me, I am in God."



There's no separate entity that places itself inside a person, I am part of this entity, which encompasses all things.

In that way I thinking...when I do harm to someone or a group, I do harm to myself, and those I love.

Yeah, I don't remember mentioning any hatred in my original post. I think theists need the challenge because deep down they know it's all just a delusion.

One does not have to use the work "hate" to speak of hate.

Now you're just being silly.

If you'll notice, I didn't specifically address your original post, without going back to reread exactly what I said, you can see I'm speaking of other times I've read your posts and heard your disdain.

I'm just trying to clarify who you have this disdain for.

Is it for religion, or for people of any type that believe in a diety?

You may allude to me being dim witted, or say I'm asking a useless question, or deluding myself.

That's just a tactic for trying to shame a person to make them shut up.

I'm not asking a hard question, and I'm sure at this point I'm not going to say anything to persuade you to give an answer. I mean, why should you? I'm (meaning the collective I'm) just dim witted and deluded, and don't deserve to take part in this discussion. Nothing against you wilso, It really doesn't matter either way. But, I think you should be aware that some people can see when you start insulting, you're really just trying to change the subject.

I've been bitter about many things in the past, and I just don't have the time for it anymore. My loss of bitterness (or at least losing a significant part of it) didn't have anything to do with a belief in God, but rather realizing that raging at something will never change the past, and being bitter in the present, will never change the present, or the future.

Over the months/years I've read your posts, it's often entered my mind how bitter seeming you are, and what a waste that is. I don't know if you're bitter or not, but if you are....it's a useless emotion.

If you aren't, I wish you'd try not to lump too many people in the same basket. If you're against just religion, say so....if you're "against" anyone who believes in a diety, even with you religion, well....that's just not paying attention. Since words are the medium we use here, it'd be helpful to use the right ones.

I guess that's all I have to say about that.