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Showtimes "The Tudors" historically inaccurate

 
 
Chai
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2007 04:31 am
Shame though, because it only serves to make our knowledge worse.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2007 08:17 am
Roberta wrote:
It's more likely that they take liberties because they assume that no one knows. It's my experience that many Americans have enough trouble with U.S. history let alone the history of long-dead British monarchs.


I think the ignorance of directors and producers plays a big part, too. They want a compelling soap opera. Frankly, the entire course of monarchical history in England from 1066 until Victoria's accession in 1837 is one long soap opera--for someone who actually knows the history, you just can't improve on the original story.

The Ken Burns' The Civil War "documentary" on PBS was full of holes, and laced with a lot of silly claptrap which showed that Burns was either ignorant or lazy--he completely bought, hook, line and sinker, the Joshuah Chamberlain bullshit self-promotion version of Gettysburg, for example (don't get me started). There was also a documentary (also PBS) about the American Revolution. At one point, an historian was on screen commenting on the fact that Washington showed up at the Second Continental Congress in his Virginia Militia uniform from the French and Indian War, and commented rather condescendingly that he was advertising for the job of commander of the Continental Army. So, so what? That was what people did in such situations in the 18th century, and it was expected--and most people already had Washington in mind for the job; they'd have been surprised if he hadn't lobbied for the job.

She then commented that Washington's military experience did not qualify him for the post. I've seen this sort of thing all my life. Washington is genuinely a larger-than-life figure in history, and was truly unique; it seems that many historians, being inescapably "small" people who won't be remembered have some sort of compulsion to attempt to belittle someone who was truly great.

She commented that his early experience was building a fort in a bad position, surrendering the fort when he could have held it, signing a surrender document in French which he couldn't read and did not understand was an admission that he had conspired to murder a diplomat, and that he subsequently commanded a string of widely-separated garrisons which he found it difficult to maintain. All of this is true, but it was rather a stupid comment on her part. We should be glad that Washington got all of his mistakes out of the way in a war which was not lost because of them. He was not a man to make the same mistakes twice. In that war, when he was only a young man in his early 20s, he learned everything he needed to know to accomplish the almost hopeless task which faced him as commander of the Continental Army.

Almost hopeless, but not quite, because Washington knew how to deal with defeat (the army under the command of Braddock which the French defeated in 1755 was only saved because Washington kept his head and lead them back to Virginia and safety). He knew how to keep a force in the field on slim to no supplies and support from the government. He knew how to deal with subordinates and superiors whose only interest was their own vanity and venality. In short, in his service from 1753 to 1758 he learned every lesson he would need to do his job from 1775 to 1783.

We get crap historical "documentaries" both because producers and directors are ignorant of history, and have little interest in accuracy, and a lot of interest in drama and excitement. Genuine history has more drama and excitement than screen writers can dream up. We also get crap historical "documentaries" because academic historians are so eager to get their mugs in front of the camera, and to demonstrate their 20-20 hindsight.

No surprises here.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2007 09:04 am
I studied the Tudors and Stuarts at school and I was just going to say....

well not very much now Sad

I'm sure it wasnt as complicated as Set makes out

there was a song too I seem to recall

I'M HENRY THE VIII, I AM

I'm Henry the eighth I am
Henry the eighth I am, I am
I got married to the widow next door
She's been married seven times before
And every one was an Henry (Henry)
She wouldn't have a Willy or a Sam (no Sam)
I'm her eighth old man, I'm Henry
Henry the eighth I am

Second verse same as the first

I'm Henry the eighth I am
Henry the eighth I am, I am
I got married to the widow next door
She's been married seven times before
And every one was an Henry (Henry)
She wouldn't have a Willy or a Sam (no Sam)
I'm her eighth old man, I'm Henry
Henry the eighth I am

------ lead guitar ------

I'm Henry the eighth I am
Henry the eighth I am, I am
I got married to the widow next door
She's been married seven times before
And every one was an Henry (Henry)
She wouldn't have a Willy or a Sam (no Sam)
I'm her eighth old man, I'm Henry
Henry the eighth I am

H-E-N-R-Y
Henry (Henry)
Henry (Henry)
Henry the eighth I am, I am
Henry the eighth I am

Yeah!


There you go I knew it was simple
0 Replies
 
Chai
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2007 09:19 am
I always LOVED that song Steve!

Herman and the Hermits.


Here's a question for you Steve, since you're so clever.

I head once a short poem on how to tell the difference of what happened to each of his brides.

Lines like...

wed
lost her head
dead
etc.
0 Replies
 
PJV
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2007 03:07 pm
Setanta wrote:
Actually, Henry VIII did have a sister named Margaret. He had a daughter named Mary.

Margaret begat James, who married Mary of Guise, who begat Mary, Queen of Scots, who begat James, who became King James I of England. James begat Charles, who begat Charles and James. Charles II died without legitimate issue (who had more bastards than rooms in his palace), so his brother James became James II. James had already begotten Mary, who married William of Orange, who mother was her Aunt, Mary Stuart (another one of the begats of Charles I). William and Mary invaded England in 1688 and drove James from his throne. When they died without children, Mary's sister Anne became Queen of England (she was another begat of James II). She did not produce an heir, and therefore, Sophie of Hanover, the descendant of Margaret Tudor (Margaret begat, etc.) was to succeed her. Sophie died in 1714, just before Anne, and therefore, her son George, Elector of Hanover became King George I. The present Queen Elizabeth is directly descended from George I (via his greatgranddaughter, Victoria), and therefore, from Margaret Tudor.

So Henry VIII did have a sister named Margaret Tudor. She never married the King of Portugal, but she did marry three Scotsmen. The first one she married was the grandfather of James VI, who would become King James I of Scotland. The last man she married, Henry Stewart, was the grandfather of the man who would marry Mary Queen of Scots, mother of King James VI of Scotland and James I of England. Her oldest son, James the first, fathered the woman whose descendant, Sophie of Hanover, was the mother of George who would become George I of England.

It's a damned good thing she never married the King of Portugal--the whole story is difficult enough as it is.


Setanta,

I always thought that Mary Queen of Scots who was imprisoned in the tower was the daughter of Henry VIII and Catherine his Spanish wife. I thought that Henry's daughter Elizabeth was trying to keep Mary from power. I guess I got this idea from movies. In any case, what did happen to Henry VIII's daughter Mary ?

In the Tudors mini series, they give us the impression that Margaret never had any children. I wonder why they gave this impression and I don't see the need for making up something about the King of Portugal. They probably could have dramatized anything that really did happen.



Thanks
0 Replies
 
PJV
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2007 03:31 pm
I was glued to The Tudors and was surprised that it suddenly ended when it did and won't be back until January ! After all that intensity Henry VIII is still not married to Anne Boleyn and we have to tune in later !


My feeling was that they were trying to show different sides to Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn that differ from how they are usually protrayed and thought of in movies. This portrayal makes it seem that Anne Boleyn's father was pushing her toward the king and they had their own agenda. The King was lead in the direction he went by others. Anne Boleyn doesn't appear as a victim but rather a snotty selfish brat who deserves what she gets. I wonder how accurate this is?

It was also interesting to see the way the persecutions began and the transformation of the Thomas Moore character....from selfless and humble to a basically mean narrow minded and cruel.
0 Replies
 
PJV
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2007 03:56 pm
OK, I see

Here is what happened with Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon's daughter Mary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_I_of_England

I had thought she was the Queen of Scots but I see now that she was once Queen of England in the line of succession after Edward VI
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2007 05:39 pm
I didn't see your posts until you'd figured it out for yourself. Mary Tudor, a.k.a. "Bloody Mary," was born more than 25 years before Mary Queen of Scots was born. Mary Queen of Scots was taken to France when she was five years of age, and was educated there. She did not return to her homeland until after Bloody Mary had died.

Don't feel bad, most people confuse Bloody Mary and Mary Queen of Scots because they were both born in the 16th century and both died in the 16th century. But they were actually, in important respects, worlds apart. Mary Tudor was the niece of Margaret Tudor, while Mary Queen of Scots was the granddaughter of Margaret Tudor. About the only thing they had in common apart from Tudor ancestry was that they were both Catholic--and even that did not make them alike.
0 Replies
 
PJV
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 01:26 pm
Mary Queen of Scots was considered a cousin of Elizabeth I , then right ?

Watching the Tudors makes me see that what happened back then were not from cut and dried decissions of what they wanted to happen. It was like a chain of events took place that got them evetually to form their English Church. It's interesting how it all came about. It makes me wonder how history would have been different if Catherine of Aragon had a son that lived. Or if Anne Boleyn had not refused being a mistress to the King. In the end Henry VIII's only son did not live long enough to make an impact as a king and it was a female heir who ruled.

I read one account that states Anne Boleyn had six fingers and a lot of moles and was not truly beautiful at all.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 07:42 pm
PJV wrote:


Quote:
Mary Queen of Scots was considered a cousin of Elizabeth I , then right ?

Yes.
She was a Stewart
and the mother of James Stewart,
who inherited England in 1603
( upon the death of Elizabeth Tudor, child of Anne Boleyne )
and was the first King of England of the Stewart Dynasty.






Quote:
In the end Henry VIII's only son did not live long enough
to make an impact as a king and it was a female heir who ruled.

2 of them;
Mary Tudor and Elizabeth I



Quote:
I read one account that states Anne Boleyn had six fingers and a lot of moles and was not truly beautiful at all.

Well, Natalie Dormer is truly beautiful at all.
David
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 10:58 pm
Yes, Elizabeth and Mary Queen of Scots were cousins, but not that close as cousins--Henry VII and Elizabeth of York were the grandparents of Elizabeth Tudor, who became Queen of England. But they were the great-grandparents of Mary Queen of Scots.

Henry Tudor VII+Elizabeth of York=Henry Tudor VIII+Anne Boleyn=Elizabeth Tudor.

But:

Henry VII+Eliz. of York=Margaret Tudor+James IV Stewart=James V Stewart+Mary of Guise=Mary Stewart ("Queen of Scots").

Therefore, although only nine years separated Elizabeth Tudor, born 1533, and Mary Stewart (also spelt Stuart), born 1542, they were separated by a full generation. Elizabeth's paternal grandparents were Mary's paternal-maternal great-grandparents.

Mary's son by Lord Darnley, Henry Stuart (her first cousin) became James VI of Scotland, and, upon the death of Elizabeth, King James I of England (he is usually referred to as James VI and I). By that point, two generations separated Elizabeth and her successor, James. But James was the closest relative to Elizabeth "in the right line," i.e., a direct line from father or mother to child. In France, the fictional Salic Law prohibited a Queen from ruling in her own right, and prohibited descent in the right line by the distaff, or female line. Scotland also prohibited distaff descent, but James V died when Mary was just six days old--therefore, with no known, living and legitimate male heirs of the Stewart line in Scotland, she became Queen of Scots when not yet one week old.

Henry VIII was sticking it to, at least, Anne Boleyn's mother before he married Anne, and possibly her sister, too. I would suspect that simple lust motivated him, but he was also powerfully motivated by the need to produce a healthy male heir, and preferably more than one. As for Anne's appearance, and any allegations of having extra digits, i would not pay much heed to that. If it were true, it were not sufficient to cool Henry's lust--and, by and large, such accounts are almost always suspect. For example, one commentator spoke ill of Mary of Guise, the mother of Mary Queen of Scots--and he spoke of her skin being "blotched" and blemished all over. One has to wonder how he ever had occasion to view Mary's skin "all over." Many, many years later, he spoke ill of the appearance of Mary Queen of Scots, and in particular spoke of her legs as blemished and spindly. In those times, it was rare that even a woman's husband saw her legs, so the allegation of this rather snide commentator are hardly to be taken seriously--he likely never saw the skin of Mary of Guise "all over," and he likely never saw the legs of Mary Queen of Scots. Add to that the many, many comments on the beauty of Mary Queen of Scots, who long was in the French court where competition was stiff, and the many portraits that show a woman who is at least handsome, if one is not prepared to describe her as beautiful--and it is likely that the commentator was just a sourpuss who disliked Mary of Guise and Mary Queen of Scots.

I'd say the same may be true of whoever was slighting Anne Boleyn for her looks.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jul, 2007 05:51 am
Setanta wrote:
Yes, Elizabeth and Mary Queen of Scots were cousins, but not that close as cousins--Henry VII and Elizabeth of York were the grandparents of Elizabeth Tudor, who became Queen of England. But they were the great-grandparents of Mary Queen of Scots.

Henry Tudor VII+Elizabeth of York=Henry Tudor VIII+Anne Boleyn=Elizabeth Tudor.

But:

Henry VII+Eliz. of York=Margaret Tudor+James IV Stewart=James V Stewart+Mary of Guise=Mary Stewart ("Queen of Scots").

Therefore, although only nine years separated Elizabeth Tudor, born 1533, and Mary Stewart (also spelt Stuart), born 1542, they were separated by a full generation. Elizabeth's paternal grandparents were Mary's paternal-maternal great-grandparents.

Mary's son by Lord Darnley, Henry Stuart (her first cousin) became James VI of Scotland, and, upon the death of Elizabeth, King James I of England (he is usually referred to as James VI and I). By that point, two generations separated Elizabeth and her successor, James. But James was the closest relative to Elizabeth "in the right line," i.e., a direct line from father or mother to child. In France, the fictional Salic Law prohibited a Queen from ruling in her own right, and prohibited descent in the right line by the distaff, or female line. Scotland also prohibited distaff descent, but James V died when Mary was just six days old--therefore, with no known, living and legitimate male heirs of the Stewart line in Scotland, she became Queen of Scots when not yet one week old.

Henry VIII was sticking it to, at least, Anne Boleyn's mother before he married Anne, and possibly her sister, too. I would suspect that simple lust motivated him, but he was also powerfully motivated by the need to produce a healthy male heir, and preferably more than one. As for Anne's appearance, and any allegations of having extra digits, i would not pay much heed to that. If it were true, it were not sufficient to cool Henry's lust--and, by and large, such accounts are almost always suspect. For example, one commentator spoke ill of Mary of Guise, the mother of Mary Queen of Scots--and he spoke of her skin being "blotched" and blemished all over. One has to wonder how he ever had occasion to view Mary's skin "all over." Many, many years later, he spoke ill of the appearance of Mary Queen of Scots, and in particular spoke of her legs as blemished and spindly. In those times, it was rare that even a woman's husband saw her legs, so the allegation of this rather snide commentator are hardly to be taken seriously--he likely never saw the skin of Mary of Guise "all over," and he likely never saw the legs of Mary Queen of Scots. Add to that the many, many comments on the beauty of Mary Queen of Scots, who long was in the French court where competition was stiff, and the many portraits that show a woman who is at least handsome, if one is not prepared to describe her as beautiful--and it is likely that the commentator was just a sourpuss who disliked Mary of Guise and Mary Queen of Scots.

I'd say the same may be true of whoever was slighting Anne Boleyn for her looks.

So stipulated.
David
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jul, 2007 05:54 am
Chai wrote:
I always LOVED that song Steve!

Herman and the Hermits.


Here's a question for you Steve, since you're so clever.

I head once a short poem on how to tell the difference of what happened to each of his brides.

Lines like...

wed
lost her head
dead
etc.
0 Replies
 
PJV
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jul, 2007 06:57 am
Setanta,

Yes, I see your point. However, I do think that it's possible gossip about what a woman looked like "all over" could have leaked out from lady's in waiting or those who helped her bath. In any case, if Ane Boleyn had 6 fingers I'd think she might have been feared to be a demon. Didn't ideas like that flourish back then?

It still astounds me that Henry VIII would have thought it to be so important to produce a male heir that he was willing to cut ties with the Catholic church and make it more difficult to have alliances with France, Spain, Italy in the future.

In watching Elizabeth I mini series, I saw how she had a heard time finding a suitable royal husband because there were no good protestant choices. The people wouldn't let her marry the Catholic Duke that she favored.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jul, 2007 03:58 pm
PJV wrote:
The people wouldn't let her marry
the Catholic Duke that she favored.

HOW did that happen ?

Did the people form an intransigent mob
between her and the desired Duke ?
0 Replies
 
PJV
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jul, 2007 05:44 pm
OmSigDAVID wrote:
PJV wrote:
The people wouldn't let her marry
the Catholic Duke that she favored.

HOW did that happen ?

Did the people form an intransigent mob
between her and the desired Duke ?


The mini series showed that Robin Lester, the Queen's long time friend who she had a certain romantic feeling for kept telling her that the Duke was not right for her. Then they showed scenes were towns people made negative jeering comments. One man wrote a critical document that circulated and the Queen had his hand cut off in the town square.

Then the Queen came to the conclusion that her role as leader of the British people was more important than her own feelings for the Duke. She said good bye to him and then resigned herself to never marry.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jul, 2007 05:46 pm
Got a name for this Duke?

Frankly, i don't believe a word of it.
0 Replies
 
PJV
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jul, 2007 06:21 pm
Setanta wrote:
Got a name for this Duke?

Frankly, i don't believe a word of it.


François, Duke of Anjou . His brother was King Henri III of France and his mother was Catherine de Medici.

http://www.answers.com/topic/fran-ois-duke-of-anjou

Courting Elizabeth I

In 1579, arrangements began to be made for his marriage to Elizabeth I of England. Alençon was in fact the only one of Elizabeth's many suitors to court her in person. He was 26 and Elizabeth was 47. Despite the age gap, the two soon became very close, Elizabeth dubbing him her "frog". Whether or not Elizabeth truly planned on marrying Alençon is a hotly debated topic. It is obvious that she was quite fond of him, knowing that he was probably going to be her last suitor. She brought him beef tea every morning and gave him a jewel-encrusted toque to wear until she could give him a crown of his own. However, the English people were very much against the match. They complained loudly and vigorously over Alençon's religion (Catholic), his nationality (French) and his mother (Catherine de Medici). English Protestants warned that the "heart of the [English] people would be galled by such a marriage... even the very common people know that he is the son of the Jezebel of our age"[citation needed]. Indeed, at her age, Elizabeth feared the hazards of childbirth, and pragmatically speaking did not think the union was a wise one. However, she continued to play the engagement game for 3 months, if only to warn Phillip II of Spain what she might do if it became necessary. Finally, the game played itself out and Elizabeth bade her "frog" farewell. Alençon continued on to the Netherlands. He did not arrive until February 10, 1582, when he was officially welcomed by William in Flushing. On his departure she penned a very moving poem called, "On Monsieurs departure," which has lent credence to those notion that she may really have gone through with the match.
0 Replies
 
PJV
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jul, 2007 06:34 pm
Setanta wrote:
Got a name for this Duke?

Frankly, i don't believe a word of it.


In the mini series I thought they were calling her life long suitor Robin Lester. However, I think they are refering to Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester. Maybe the name Robin was used as an endearing form? Maybe I am not hearing the name correctly? Any way he is related to the Earl of Essex who the Queen was taken with toward the end of her life.
0 Replies
 
Tico
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jul, 2007 11:10 pm
PJV -- I think Leicester probably sounds much like Lester, and Robin was a common diminuitive for Robert. From all accounts, he would have been her chosen husband, if he had been politically suitable. That he was unsuitable was probably as much Elizabeth's opinion as her ministers'.

As for Elizabeth's affair with le duc d'Anjou - I forget all the ins and outs of it, but she was a consummate politician and played many suitors over her career - usually to buy England time to regroup, or to gain the upper hand over her own ministers. I believe that neither she nor Anjou were particularly desirous of their proposed union, which would have been a union between the royal houses of France and England, but it was politically expedient for them to appear to be.

Regarding Henry VIII creating Anglicanism -- it was for many more reasons than Anne Boleyn, although that was definitely part of it. He had originally been slated for a religious career, until the death of his older brother, and had always been deeply interested in religion. It was a time of great upheaval in the Catholic church, with the revolution of Martin Luther (who Henry despised) and the Huguenots. But, I believe, that the essense of it was power -- that Henry wanted power.
0 Replies
 
 

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