Thinking patterns (and how to minipulate them)

Check out my posts to Rex Red for the ultra-cute ultra-simple version.

I claim animals can learn and people can be trained in addition to your claim, thus unless you are relying on semantics or ideologies I fail to see much of a salient a point here.

not from thinking, if that's what you're implying.

se·man·tics Pronunciation[si-man-tiks] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
-noun (used with a singular verb) 1. Linguistics. a. the study of meaning.
b. the study of linguistic development by classifying and examining changes in meaning and form.

2. Also called significs. the branch of semiotics dealing with the relations between signs and what they denote.
3. the meaning, or an interpretation of the meaning, of a word, sign, sentence, etc.: Let's not argue about semantics.

Comment:
I agree with your ideas.

Like prisoners are punished and children are disciplined.

I am not sure that people do not need to sense some sort of reward to actually commit themselves to something.

It would be nice if people did things out of the goodness of their hearts but I think most motivations are more self serving in nature.

I know what the word "semantics" means.

But I disagree that it's a matter of semantics. I think chumly and I are talking apples and oranges. And yes, I think teaching and training can happen to both animals and children but I think they are two totally different approaches with totally different results and that real conscious thought is involved in only one of them. And that's what the thread purported to be about.

Chumly's method of training would not work for me- and as I've actually had to do it with children I've worked with (Lovaas- Discreet Trial Training) I have experience and gathered data that has TAUGHT me (or trained me- if you don't want to get overly semantic) that though it seems to work initally- it's effectiveness soon wanes- unless you can either remove the stimulus by changing the situation- or produce a real and measureable change in conscious thought .

Rex wrote:

Yes, and I know it's probably not a popular idea, but when prisoners are disciplined (which involves teaching and rehabilitative measures instead of merely punishment) there's much less chance of recidivism. Again, it doesn't work with everyone and some actually prefer punishment and what has become (to them) the comfort and safety of familiar treatment- as opposed to having to hope and believe that things could ever be different enough to make it worthwhile for them to change- but I've seen with my own eyes the difference in responses when people (even those who are prisoners) are taught as opposed to trained.


It's not out of the goodness of their hearts even when positive behavior is its own reward- there's still reward and "punishment" involved. They're called consequences.

I agree that change requires a stronger sort of motivation. It seems that words like "life changing" and "crisis" come to mind.

Are we able to change our thinking? Certainly. But, why do you ask? Are you thinking negative thoughts about yourself, someone else, a situation?

Say, you are hating your neighbor? How would you change that feeling to love for your neighbor? By thinking about someone you love, your wife, a child, a grandchild, then transferring that thought to the hated neighbor. When we change our thinking, then and only then will our feelings change. It's the feelings that we must want to, with our every breath, change.

It's called metaphysics. We will eventually become what we think. Thoughts in mind produce after their kind. We can only hate for so long before we become that hate, possibly acting on it.

Hi Rex, I come here once in a great while but I used to read your posts.

Why thank you Sunlover for your very thoughtful and insightful comments are greatly appreciated.

It is time I take these beans off the back burner give them a stir and spill a few out before they get scorched.

It is not anger although I am always metering my anger levels because the last thing I want to do is hurt someone's feelings by being unnecessarily rude and abrupt.

Sometime I do get all full of frustration and it is human to err at those moments. I am not rationalizing that that is appropriate in any case.

I truly appreciate anyone taking the time to read what I write. I do write from the heart which is not always the best guide but it is at least honest.

I think the root behind my motivation in this post is a gripe I have with the general psychological approach to breaking thinking patterns.

By thinking patterns I mean habits in general..

We all have had habits we have tried to break. The new year brings so many broken resolutions the failures outweigh the success by an enormous percentage.

What is wrong with the approach? Can an old dog just not learn new tricks? I also think the mind can be changed successfully and any type of habitual thinking pattern can be overcome.

The idea that if we put our impulses on a back burner and they will come back someday with a fury is only partially true, let's say more false than true.

The idea that we can force someone into change is rather futile. Change must come from within. But if there is a genuine will to change then it is not a matter of you can't change because you will only simmer these thoughts until they go ablaze on the back burner is completely false.

Even an old person can change their habits and thought patterns with the right process and outlook. But the process of the psychological world is completely backwards. This is why they proclaim that certain mental habit patterns and behaviors are "incurable". Because THEY (psychologists, counselors and psychiatrists) cannot cure them.

Their success rate is laughable because they have the wrong philosophy. I wonder if this approach to the mind was not derived from communist countries that set out to wreck the moral fiber of the west with misinformation.

The mind can overcome anything (within reason) it sets it goals upon. The back burner theory is simply a lie designed to make doctors rich. To keep you coming back and racking up the bills and paying for their mansions, sports cars and trips to the French Riviera. Eventually people simply accept failure...

The way to rid one of bad thoughts is to suppress them not dwell on them. By dwelling on them we only intensify them and give them credence. The psychiatrist's couch is a backhoe that dredges up old memories and places the patient back in the very thing they desire to escape.

Here is where I get Biblical on you all... I have given the basic thrust of where I am coming from. I will stop here and let you all comment on this. I am sure some already disagree with me.

Some of you may sample these "beans" and let me know if they need any spice or maybe this post should be in the cooking section. LOL

I agree with a lot of what you said Rex- except when you get to the part about suppression. And even there, I don't necessarily disagree with the idea, maybe it's just the word you chose- in this case maybe it is semantics- you can tell me what you think.

I don't think suppression is enough. I think in order for there to be a real change, there has to be something to replace whatever role in your life that thought pattern played. So not only do you have to suppress the negative thought or habit, you have to find something to replace the space getting rid of it will leave in your life. Because if you simply suppress, but leave that space blank-it will beg to be filled and you'll be tempted to fill it with what has always fit so comfortably in the past. But if the space is filled with something else- there won't be room for that old negative habit/thought pattern to return.

bm.

Adian,

Thanks for your quick and exacting reply. You hit the nail right on the head.

I used the word suppression because I knew it was a touchstone word that is used by the psychiatric community.

I think we both brushed on this subject a couple thousand posts back.

True "suppression" seem like a bad choice of word.

Suppression would indicate that our undesirable thoughts always remain lurking under the surface. Yet indeed this is how our habit patterns seem to function. We can over come our suppression by the miracle of God over time.

YET often with the old mind thinking they seem like they have been replaced then they rear their ugly head when a person is weak and at the most inopportune of times.

When a person feels good about themselves and they come up and say, this anger is justified or just one drink won't kill me and so on 'till people end up back in the same boat being swept downstream with the flow of the minds negative currents.

These thoughts need to be simply cast down. But the rationalization of the ONE mind says they cannot just ignore them because they are woven into the fabric of the seemingly only mind that they have to use to also make vital decisions. So the mind appears to have a monopoly and an ability to justify the needs and wants no matter the cost. The heart blinds the mind of it's duty to the self and people are easily led astray by the dictates of the wants over the needs.

Ridding the self of some of the habit patterns are often linked to a persons very survival. Yet it seems on a daily basis we witness people failing to resist the minds influence and going out in a flash of negative brilliance.

I am not disagreeing that suppression is not a good word but I think that is what in essence must be done. When we resist the OLD mindset enough the mind (devil) will eventually flee from the pursuit.

One must acquire a NEW MIND to overcome the old mind. Eventually the entire old mind must become rendered irrelevant. One must distance themselves from the normal thinking patterns and when these unwanted thoughts occur then they proclaim to themselves... "that thought came from the old mind." (not my will but thine be done)

That a person becomes conscious and believes to the extent that the new mind works where the old mind is irreparably broken.

HERE WE GO... (please take the time to read these carefully) Keep in mind the MIND...

2Corinthians 10:5
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Comment: Is casting down the same as suppressing?

Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

1Corinthians 2:16
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Ephesians 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Comment: The new person inside is created by God for us to utilize.

Colossians 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Comment: The new person or mind is adorned thought by thought.

James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Comment: Suppress/resist the devil and he will eventually flee.

Ephesians 6:11
Put on the whole armour [mental "athletic" gear] of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle [athletic imagery] not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Comment: Again this is with the NEW inner person

Ephesians 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Comment: Does our understanding have "EYES"? If it has eyes then there must "biblically" be a whole inner person in the mind.

Many people do not know what a psychological document the Bible is. It is a wealth of truth concerning the thought and it sets right many of the errors of the psychological world.

For instance it is one thought at a time not one day at a time. And to dwell on our shortcomings are to only magnify them we have to take two minds and eventually let the mind of Christ (over time) win out. Cast down the thoughts realizing they are part of the mind that was corrupted by the mind of the world. (not out of law but the law of liberty)

It is a thought by thought process. Our habits are sewn together in the mind like a strand of entwined threads. Each thread represents a habit. Like undoing macrame. You unfold one thread over and then unfold the next. Each thread goes deeper into the psyche.


Ephesians:16
That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man [person];

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference


Comment: The chruch has the believing capacity (faith) of Jesus Christ embodied in the new mind that God freely creates in us. This new mind is to help believers overcome these suppressed desires. So one should go to God FIRST for help to become "perfect" instead of becoming perfect then going to God.

Mt 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Comment: A believer can only overcome the old mind with the new mind, created in Christ Jesus unto all good works.

So it is a constant renewing of the mind thought by thought realizing the a the old mind is seriously flawed and incapable of change on it's own.

Because the old mind lives by the nature of the world (flesh) where the new mind lives by the nature of God (spirit).

The old nature gets worse and worse (this is what corruption means biblically) where the new nature gets better and better.

Ephesians 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

2Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Ephesians 6:4 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate [heart] of righteousness; 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

Comment: The new person inside the mind has the loins, heart and feet of the will.

Loins = commitment center of the will
Heart = the believing center of the will
Feet = the action center of the will

So if a person is not acting (feet) on their new minds will perhaps they are not believing (heart) properly and if they are not believing properly perhaps they have not made a commitment (loins)... the precesses of the mind progress in that order.

Isn't the word of God magnificent?

Peace with God

Rex wrote:


I've always loved to read the Bible.

Many verses are misunderstood, misinterpreted or addressed to a bygone people and age but what is relevant is still full of wonder and enlightenment for the mind and soul.

Give it a try... you may have overlooked something that has brought millions peace of mind and a close intimate relationship with a loving God.

I suggest the book of Ephesians... When I first read it I got halfway down the page when it suddenly struck me and changed my life forever.

Ecstasy has brought millions peace of mind... that doesn't mean we should all do it and mandate its use to others.

Prozac has brought millions peace of mind... that isn't evidence that it links our mind to the divine.

I've read the entire bible cover to cover.

I think if more people did that, they'd abandon Christianity.

Do you mean, chemical ecstacy or the natural variety? If you can achieve ecstacy naturally, I'd certainly advocate "doing" it and not exactly mandate using or employing whatever gets you there to others, but firmly suggest it. I think that definitely would transform the world.
(And I'm not implying it would be reading the Bible or Christianity for everyone).


Not exactly...not from what I read or have heard reported from the people who need to take antidepressants. I don't think you could call it peace of mind-it sounds more like lack of anxiety or panic or dread- and just about the furthest away you could get from "a link to the divine".


I have too. It doesn't confirm my belief in anything. I've just read it in the past (and still do) because I like the language and some of the ideas, themes, concepts and characters- especially Jesus. I'm more fond of him than God though- except when I think of God as the creator of this earth. But I'm not that crazy about how God interacts with humans in the Bible-that's where I think Jesus does a much better job.


Obviously, a lot of people have seen it differently.

Mind altering drugs more often than not change people's life rapidly for the worse where mind altering scriptures "of truth" change one's life for the better.

Take your pick