Thinking patterns (and how to minipulate them)

I guess you could not think about them, but that is difficult. Smile

Any ideas?

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Take a rubber band and put it on you wrist.
Every time you have the thought you don't want, pull that rubber band and have it snap against your wrist so it stings.
You'll soon see that you're conditioned out of having that thought!

To condition yourself into having the thought you do want, get a bunch of Smarties or some other tasty small treats, and every time you have the thought you do want, eat one and reward yourself.
You'll soon see that you're conditioned into having that thought!

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Behavior modification works sometimes for some people, but it's often just a band-aid. The stimulus is still an ever-present, lurking danger- and at some point both the negative and positive reinforcer begin to lose their power to affect, and need to be strengthened or intensified. In the case of food rewards- this is not a good thing.

In terms of patterns of thought, a person usually adopts a manner of thinking or behavior because it feels comfortable or safe to them- the problem is that often what feels comfortable or safe is not fulfilling.

I believe the only way to truly change a pattern of behavior or thought is to learn another one through experience. By that I mean, putting yourself into situations and exposing yourself to new experiences that call for new and different patterns of thought and behavior in order for you to function properly in that new arena.

If the experience is meaningful enough to you, you'll change you're thinking. If it's not- you'll go back to the old comfortable rut.

I don't always think it's good to try to manipulate thoughts though. Sometimes it's the situation that needs to change and convincing yourself that it's your thoughts about the situation instead of the situation itself is not always productive.

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I agree with the idea that it is not very desirable approach to unwanted thoughts to learn how to suppress them. Dealing with the root of the problem is perhaps more at place (dealing with 'why is it happening?' where are they coming from? what in my life is causing this?). Avoiding seldom yields fruitful results.

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You two must have amusing ways of training dogs!
I'll guess the response will be "people are not dogs."
I would then of course say "be that as it may, the similarities vastly outweigh the differences in terms of proven associative learning efficacies."

Consider: a dog's nature might well be argued to be one of undesirable aggression in an untimely fashion, as well might many people. If we accept the premise of it being one of nature, it's unrealistic to perceive it as a problem in the absolute sense, it would only be in the relative sense, thus the rationale for associative learning.

As to externalized situational circumstances that's another matter in terms of associative learning. Rex Red has not defined any of the parameters to suggest his concerns are externalized situational, to the contrary in fact.

How about it Rex Red, are you going to give up the goods and spill the beans?

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Chumly, how astute of you. Laughing

I will not not spill all of the beans, only a few at a time... Because I love hearing other people's ideas and solutions.

Behavior stems from "the will" and the will is often confused with the heart but it is actually a function of the mind and the decision making process of the mind.

The will has three characteristics..

The commitment center of the will, the believing center of the will and the action center of the will.

How do these three work together to produce or restrict behavior?

Does the mind require outside stimulus to resist it's own often errant pattern of commitments, believing and actions? How does one escape the whims and stratagems of their own mind?

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well, chumly, i would certainly not train the dog in the same way i would bring up a child. besides,it was my impression that we're talking about patterns of thinking, not instincts. while related, they are not identical.

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It's an open question as to how much free actions & thoughts versus conditioning and instincts humans have and/or are truly capable of, even under ideal circumstance, let alone day-to-day.

Consider: perceived versus actual, subjective versus objective. In any case, my impression is that Rex Red is not a child, your impressions may be otherwise.

As far as your child / dog comparison, are you saying that with the child you would not encourage good behavior and discourage bad behavior? Because in fact that is what I've said as it relates to associative learning.

Given you say "i would certainly not train the dog in the same way i would bring up a child" am I assume you would not encourage good behavior and discourage bad behavior with associative learning when it comes to children?

If you would not use associative learning when it comes to children to encourage good behavior and discourage bad behavior how would you teach your child that screaming in the supermarket is "wrong" and saying please and thank you is "right"?

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Chumly said:

Quote:

You two must have amusing ways of training dogs!
I'll guess the response will be "people are not dogs."
I would then of course say "be that as it may, the similarities vastly outweigh the differences in terms of proven associative learning efficacies."

Really? That's news to me. I've trained dogs and taught people and aside from repetition, I can't really think of any common methods that I've used for both . Although I will grant you that I'm not big on behaviorism, as I grant you that someone who is might employ similar methods at the most basic level while training dogs and working with people.
But to put it in the most general terms and perspective, when I'm working with children or teaching people, I'm much more inclined to follow their lead and work to their strengths, and when I'm training a dog- it's pretty much the opposite. I make it clear that I'm the leader of the pack and the animal must follow my lead.
Let me guess, if you had a baby, you'd feed him/her on a strict timed schedule instead of when s/he indicated s/he was hungry?

I think behavior therapy changes the subconscious or instinctive response. In my mind it has little to do with conscious patterns of thought.

Quote:

In any case, my impression is that Rex Red is not a child, your impressions may be otherwise.

Where did this come from and how does it relate to anyone's statements/responses?

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RexRed wrote:

How does one escape the whims and stratagems of their own mind?

Try elastic bands and Smarties.

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aidan wrote:

I've trained dogs and taught people and aside from repetition, I can't really think of any common methods that I've used for both.

Explain how you exempt yourself from associative learning.

aidan wrote:

Although I will grant you that I'm not big on behaviorism, as I grant you that someone who is might employ similar methods at the most basic level while training dogs and working with people.

See above.

aidan wrote:

But to put it in the most general terms and perspective, when I'm working with children or teaching people, I'm much more inclined to follow their lead and work to their strengths,

Be that as it may in terms of your subjective presumptions, explain how you exempt yourself from associative learning.

aidan wrote:

and when I'm training a dog- it's pretty much the opposite. I make it clear that I'm the leader of the pack and the animal must follow my lead.

See above.

aidan wrote:

Let me guess, if you had a baby, you'd feed him/her on a strict timed schedule instead of when s/he indicated s/he was hungry?

Demonstrate the relevance of this question as to whether or not you can exempt yourself from associative learning.

aidan wrote:

I think behavior therapy changes the subconscious or instinctive response. In my mind it has little to do with conscious patterns of thought.

If you are going to bring in references to "behavior therapy", assuming it's not related to associative learning, you are firstly going to have to be far more explicit as to what you mean by "behavior therapy", then we can address your claims that "behavior therapy changes the subconscious or instinctive response".

aidan wrote:

Where did this come from and how does it relate to anyone's statements/responses?

Dagmaraka's reference to how she would "would bring up a child" versus Rex Red's question as to "What is the most successful way to change unwanted thinking patterns?"

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Chumly wrote:

RexRed wrote:
How does one escape the whims and stratagems of their own mind?
Try elastic bands and Smarties.

So Chumly, do you have a plan B? Smile

The problem with the patterns of the mind is that they are exactly that patterns of behavior based upon a complex set of reasoning. Many thinking patterns are unconscious and do not even involve the main core of the brain where reasoning takes place.

The question is how exactly does the mind work and where are it's weakness and the choke point where one can gain control of the flow of what is learned and already become first nature.

There must be a type of incentive... but there also must be an awareness of the mind's overall limitations. Humans are not only controlled by reason but by environment and physical interactive stimuli.

How does one reason beyond the wants and find the need?

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You have not tried plan A, naughty Rex, no Smartie for you!

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How does one stay the mind and keep it focused on the goal?

To say punishment and rewards but who will punish and reward? Can we trust the mind to be it's own judge, jury and executioner?

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Start with a very simple easy goal, don't overwhelm yourself with over-thinking.

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Chumly wrote:

Start with a very simple easy goal, don't overwhelm yourself with over-thinking.

Very sound advice at least it sounds logical?

Are you saying the mind works more effectively at one goal than several at once?

How does the mind perceive these issues visually?

Like DNA or a heap of junk or a twisted knot of yarn? I am not disagreeing with you but, why would the mind prefer a simple approach over a total immersion in change?

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Chumly wrote:

It's an open question as to how much free actions & thoughts versus conditioning and instincts humans have and/or are truly capable of, even under ideal circumstance, let alone day-to-day.

Consider: perceived versus actual, subjective versus objective. In any case, my impression is that Rex Red is not a child, your impressions may be otherwise.

As far as your child / dog comparison, are you saying that with the child you would not encourage good behavior and discourage bad behavior? Because in fact that is what I've said as it relates to associative learning.

Given you say "i would certainly not train the dog in the same way i would bring up a child" am I assume you would not encourage good behavior and discourage bad behavior with associative learning when it comes to children?

If you would not use associative learning when it comes to children to encourage good behavior and discourage bad behavior how would you teach your child that screaming in the supermarket is "wrong" and saying please and thank you is "right"?

all i'm saying is that instincts and thinking are two different things. so is behavior, for that matter. related, but distinct.

i haven't said a word about associative learning, that seems to be your schtick...so you might as well go ahead and say more about it rather than aks other people to comment on it.

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dagmaraka wrote:

Chumly wrote:
It's an open question as to how much free actions & thoughts versus conditioning and instincts humans have and/or are truly capable of, even under ideal circumstance, let alone day-to-day.

Consider: perceived versus actual, subjective versus objective. In any case, my impression is that Rex Red is not a child, your impressions may be otherwise.

As far as your child / dog comparison, are you saying that with the child you would not encourage good behavior and discourage bad behavior? Because in fact that is what I've said as it relates to associative learning.

Given you say "i would certainly not train the dog in the same way i would bring up a child" am I assume you would not encourage good behavior and discourage bad behavior with associative learning when it comes to children?

If you would not use associative learning when it comes to children to encourage good behavior and discourage bad behavior how would you teach your child that screaming in the supermarket is "wrong" and saying please and thank you is "right"?

all i'm saying is that instincts and thinking are two different things. so is behavior, for that matter. related, but distinct.

i haven't said a word about associative learning, that seems to be your schtick...so you might as well go ahead and say more about it rather than aks other people to comment on it.

Where would you say instincts come from?

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Chumly wrote:

Quote:

Explain how you exempt yourself from associative learning.

I don't exempt myself from associative learning. I think the key word is "learning" though as opposed to being subjected to "training". I think people are taught and animals are trained.
Some people try to train children as they would a pet. I prefer to have them learn, by giving them the freedom to discover what works best for them and what doesn't. I think it's much healthier to show a child that they have control of their choices, and the resulting consequences- than it is to "train" them to react and behave according to someone else's desires and whims- or to constantly be in thrall to whatever outside stimulus is besetting them at a particular moment.
I'm in no way advocating spoiled or egocentric behavior. I just believe that teaching a child that they have to inflict pain upon themselves to stop them from behaving badly- and that they'll have sweets stuffed down them when they do the right thing -is unnecessary and maybe even harmful.
It communicates a sense of helplessness and lack of control that I don't believe has to be innate to a person.

I believe that positive behavior brings its own rewards. And children and adults can learn this through experience.

Of course in certain situations, such as harmful addictions, at least initially behavioral conditioning can be helpful and efficacious. But I think in the long run, it must be replaced by conscious decision making if it is to have any long term chance of success.

You know, I have a question- do you believe you're ruled by your innate responses? I know that I'm not. But I think that speaks to Rex's question about how to stand firm in the face of persuasive outside stimuli. I think every person has a differing level of ability to be or not to be influenced.
If a child/person is nurtured and assured of their worth, and they feel in control and strong within themselves, I think outside stimuli will have much less of an impact on how and why they may behave in given situations. Their choices will be consistent with their values and beliefs instead of whichever way the wind happens to be blowing that day.

And Chumly, if you've developed a consistent, loving and matter of fact relationship with a child in which there's mutual respect- if they start throwing a tantrum in a store- you say firmly, "That behavior won't be tolerated" and they learn, as opposed to the same situation with a dog, in which you yank on their leash and pull them up short- and they're trained.
Yeah, some people smack the hell out of the kid just like they'd do to a dog- but those are the kids (and dogs, really) who never learn or are trained either one. Because it just doesn't work.

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Thinking patterns (and how to minipulate them)

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