Racism and self destruction

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Rencetly, Charles Barkley was commenting on politics of presidency for the next election. He told the reports that he wasn't sure Obama could win because there is a "racial divide" in this country. This is the next question and response:

Quote:

Q: In some quarters Barack has been criticized for not being black enough.

A: Well, that's because black people are (expletive deleted). One of the reasons that black people are not going to be successful is because of other black people. We tell black kids that if they make good grades, they are acting white. If they speak well, we tell them that they are acting white. We have a lot of demons in our own closet -- in our own family -- that we have to address. ... We become our own worst enemy with random black-on-black crime, teen pregnancy, single-parent homes. You know we cannot blaming white America for our ills. Does racism exist? Of course it does. But, at some point, I have to make sure I am educated. I don't have ten kids and no job. I am not killing other black people. At some point, you have to grow up. ...

What do you guys think?

I agree with it completely. I think that in general, black people are their own worst enemies.

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I agree entirely, but not just with african americans but with most minorities in general. Often the role of victim becomes an easier part to play than taking responsibility for ones self. For instance homosexual organizations cry out for equal marriage and child rearing rights while at the same time hosting pride parades, jock strap contests and lube wrestling that clearly emphasizes overt sexuality. All the while these events are justified in the name of "culture".

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bdouglass wrote:

I agree entirely, but not just with african americans but with most minorities in general. Often the role of victim becomes an easier part to play than taking responsibility for ones self. For instance homosexual organizations cry out for equal marriage and child rearing rights while at the same time hosting pride parades, jock strap contests and lube wrestling that clearly emphasizes overt sexuality. All the while these events are justified in the name of "culture".

Lube wrestling disqualifies gays from claiming a right to marriage? Wouldn't that mean that heterosexuals are equally disqualified as a result of their participation in mud wrestling?

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joefromchicago wrote:

bdouglass wrote:
I agree entirely, but not just with african americans but with most minorities in general. Often the role of victim becomes an easier part to play than taking responsibility for ones self. For instance homosexual organizations cry out for equal marriage and child rearing rights while at the same time hosting pride parades, jock strap contests and lube wrestling that clearly emphasizes overt sexuality. All the while these events are justified in the name of "culture".

Lube wrestling disqualifies gays from claiming a right to marriage? Wouldn't that mean that heterosexuals are equally disqualified as a result of their participation in mud wrestling?

I don't think it disqualifies them (and by them I mean me as well, since Im gay), I just think it sends a hypocritical message that cannibalizes itself. How can you be taken seriously at a Pride parade when you scream at the top of your lungs "IM NORMAL" all the while wearing a sequined gstring and dildo on your head. And this behavior is defended as being part of the "culture". You want to have these silly events, thats perfectly fine, label them as such. Its no different than what straight people do during spring break. Just dont try and confuse standing up for your rights (what Pride is supposed to be about) with drunken debauchery.

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bdouglass wrote:

joefromchicago wrote:
bdouglass wrote:
I agree entirely, but not just with african americans but with most minorities in general. Often the role of victim becomes an easier part to play than taking responsibility for ones self. For instance homosexual organizations cry out for equal marriage and child rearing rights while at the same time hosting pride parades, jock strap contests and lube wrestling that clearly emphasizes overt sexuality. All the while these events are justified in the name of "culture".

Lube wrestling disqualifies gays from claiming a right to marriage? Wouldn't that mean that heterosexuals are equally disqualified as a result of their participation in mud wrestling?

I don't think it disqualifies them (and by them I mean me as well, since Im gay), I just think it sends a hypocritical message that cannibalizes itself. How can you be taken seriously at a Pride parade when you scream at the top of your lungs "IM NORMAL" all the while wearing a sequined gstring and dildo on your head. And this behavior is defended as being part of the "culture". You want to have these silly events, thats perfectly fine, label them as such. Its no different than what straight people do during spring break. Just dont try and confuse standing up for your rights (what Pride is supposed to be about) with drunken debauchery.

As a fellow homo... I completely agree. I don't think it should disqualify us from marriage or whatever you want to call it... However, I can understand why heteros dislike gay people, and things like that are examples. I'm not really into the pride stuff myself, which is apparently this weekend in Missouri, and I find it somewhat embarassing. I saw a guy walking down the street the other day that made me embarassed to be gay. Cowboy boots, tiny little booty shorts, a painted on fluorescent green shirt and j-lo sunglasses. Ugh.

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I dont think it should disqualify us for marriage either. I just don't see heterosexuals jumping on the gay marriage bus when the majority of what they see in the public square is overt sexual nonsense. And we need heterosexuals to agree with us if we're ever going to pass legislation to that effect.

In essence we're a movement that cannibalizes itself.

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BDoug wrote:

I dont think it should disqualify us for marriage either. I just don't see heterosexuals jumping on the gay marriage bus when the majority of what they see in the public square is overt sexual nonsense. And we need heterosexuals to agree with us if we're ever going to pass legislation to that effect.

In essence we're a movement that cannibalizes itself.

Yup.

Though... it just occurred to me... Since it is our sexuality that is used to to disqualify us not only for marriage but also at citizens, having an event that so displays that aspect is somewhat analogous to the Million Man March that black folk participated in.

Although personally I find it distasteful, I can understand that line of reasoning.

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I can understand the line of reasoning but not the method. You want to show your sexuality and bring it out of the closet then by all means do so. Hold hands down the street, kiss by the water fountain, march in a parade. Just don't do it while wearing a shirt that says "pig bottom" or "fisting champion". Pride has turned from a show of solidarity and courage into a show of hedonism and a sexual circus. Which in of itself reiterates everything antigay people have to say; that we're focused entirely on sex and not on being gay americans that lead productive lives.

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BDoug wrote:

I can understand the line of reasoning but not the method. You want to show your sexuality and bring it out of the closet then by all means do so. Hold hands down the street, kiss by the water fountain, march in a parade. Just don't do it while wearing a shirt that says "pig bottom" or "fisting champion". Pride has turned from a show of solidarity and courage into a show of hedonism and a sexual circus. Which in of itself reiterates everything antigay people have to say; that we're focused entirely on sex and not on being gay americans that lead productive lives.

You are right and I completely agree. Quite honestly, a lot of people are just tactless - gay and straight.

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bdouglass wrote:

I don't think it disqualifies them (and by them I mean me as well, since Im gay), I just think it sends a hypocritical message that cannibalizes itself.

How is it hypocritical? If homosexuals flaunt their sexuality, they somehow forfeit their right to claim that they should be allowed to marry? Some heterosexuals flaunt their sexuality, but that doesn't stop them from claiming that gays shouldn't be allowed to marry. Where's the equity in that? If Brittany Spears can make a mockery out of marriage, why can't Rosie O'Donnell?

bdouglass wrote:

How can you be taken seriously at a Pride parade when you scream at the top of your lungs "IM NORMAL" all the while wearing a sequined gstring and dildo on your head.

Why is that a problem? Don't sequined-g-string-wearing dildoheads deserve equality too?

bdouglass wrote:

And this behavior is defended as being part of the "culture". You want to have these silly events, thats perfectly fine, label them as such. Its no different than what straight people do during spring break. Just dont try and confuse standing up for your rights (what Pride is supposed to be about) with drunken debauchery.

Why can't it be both?

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Just because one person makes a mockery of marriage doesnt mean its alright for another. It just means all parties are guilty. Very similiar to those in congress that tried to approve the marriage amendment but had been divorced, some even multiple times. They're just as guilty of destroying "the sanctity of marriage".

Do sequine dildo-headed people deserve equality? Thats a hard question honestly. Do I think someone flaunting their sexuality down the street instills in me confidence that they are going to treat marriage with the respect (that neither heterosexuals nor homosexuals give it) it deserves? Not really.

Why can't drunken debauchery also represent a fight for equality? Cause you're mixing messages. Its like throwing a party to raise money for an AIDS benefit. The dinner and drinks are a bribe to get people to come to empty their wallets. Which is fine. You collect the money and obtain your goals. At Pride its different. You're their to change peoples minds. Getting drunk and having a lube wrestling contest is antithetical to the point of the event. It convinces people that maybe gays really are just obsessed with sex.

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BDoug wrote:

Just because one person makes a mockery of marriage doesnt mean its alright for another. It just means all parties are guilty.

I don't disagree. But when it's a matter of one's right to make a mockery of marriage, I think it makes a big difference that one class of persons is able to enjoy that right while another class isn't.

BDoug wrote:

Do sequine dildo-headed people deserve equality? Thats a hard question honestly.

Really? I'd think it would be a remarkably easy question.

BDoug wrote:

Do I think someone flaunting their sexuality down the street instills in me confidence that they are going to treat marriage with the respect (that neither heterosexuals nor homosexuals give it) it deserves? Not really.

So what? If marriage is a right, then it really doesn't matter much what people do with it once they have it. People don't have rights only on the condition that they exercise them in some esthetically pleasing manner. Most free speech cases, for instance, arise when people say rather unpleasant things. It's the extreme ends of the spectrum that always test the limits of civil rights.

BDoug wrote:

Why can't drunken debauchery also represent a fight for equality? Cause you're mixing messages. Its like throwing a party to raise money for an AIDS benefit. The dinner and drinks are a bribe to get people to come to empty their wallets. Which is fine. You collect the money and obtain your goals. At Pride its different. You're their to change peoples minds. Getting drunk and having a lube wrestling contest is antithetical to the point of the event. It convinces people that maybe gays really are just obsessed with sex.

I've been to more than a few Gay Pride parades in Chicago (I used to live about a block from the parade route). I don't recall anyone attempting to change my political stance while lube wrestling. Around these parts, lube wrestling is far too serious a business for the participants or the spectators to be bothered with something trivial like politics.

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I thought this thread was supposed to discuss whether the African-American culture has components that hurt it own constituency?
Leaving any question of Gay culture to another thread, I would offer the thought that the popular Black culture does put up some obstacles for a Black child to join the main stream society that is obviously quite Caucasian.
But, if you look back at the movie Saturday Night Fever, we see some members of another urban ethnic sub-culture that was not able to pursue inclusion in main stream society (the individuals did not value education beyond high school, except for the one brother that was a Priest).
There's also the factor that more females, than males, seem to be going to college today, regardless of race or ethnic background. Perhaps, in fifty years, women will be running the government and corporations, and men will be doing physical labor type jobs, or jobs where one's hands get "dirty." All the clean, non-backbreaking jobs will be handled by college educated women (or gays?).
It might just be that being a masculine male has an albatross of maintaining a negative orientation towards education for many in the lower socio-economic spectrum. African-Americans may just show this problem more, since they have a well defined cultural picture of masculinity (their music is now the popular music of all young people) and as history unfolded, many are still in a lower socio-economic position.
No one is obligated to defend any "group's" cultural ways, and personally I think many groups have some cultural behavior that prevents them from being Ozzie and Harriet (AKA upper class WASPs). Like maybe we should all just convert to Episcopalian and then we'll all fit into mainstream society with the "best" fit?

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Racism and self destruction

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