And i'm just saying that finding "outlaws" cool is a rather superficial way of looking at reality. John Wesley Hardin was sufficiently "cool" in the eyes of that idiot Bob Zimmerman (aka "Dylan") that he wrote a ballad about him as though he were folk hero, "with a gun in every hand." In fact, he was a homicidal sociopath who attempted murder at age 14, accomplished murder by age 15, and eventually, after spending almost half his life in prison (which was considerably kinder an outcome than the lynching which his victims survivors probably believed he deserved), was shot to death with three bullets in the back as he knealt on the floor of a sleazy West Texas bar shooting craps. But old Bob Dylan wants you to think he was a hero.
I don't think so, and i am always skeptical of claims that anyone is a romantic hero because they are "an outlaw." And that's all i am saying.
Just three points.
1. "Cool" is definately a subjective term. A person who I might find heroic can be a villain to you. I sure you know that history is full of examples of this.
2. I am not saying that being an outlaw in itself is cool. I never said I think every outlaw is cool (and the examples you gave of "uncool" outlaws are ones I probably agree with). It is also interesting that you let the truth interfere with your enjoyment of a perfectly good song This is a perfectly good story, if taken as fiction (and what Dylan intended doesn't take away from the art).
3. There are some people who were outlaws who I do find cool... and these outlaws are cool precisely because of their illegal acts. Harriet Tubman would be an example of a person who I find heroic and who lived part of her life as an outlaw.
I find it hilarious that you point out that "cool" is a subjective term, and yet continue to apply it to the discussion. This exchange has, at least, entertainment value.
It is entertainment value, Set. I said that posts ago. I used the word "cool" in a perfectly subjective way. My first use of "cool" as to descibe the story as "cool" meaning I found it amusing and entertaining. This is obviously a very subjective expression of my personal tastes.
The idea of heroic outlaws is the most interesting idea in this discussion to me. This is why I have been trying to steer the discussion in this direction.
My claim is that illegal acts have caused social change. In many cases I personally (and subjectively) feel these changes have been quite positive. I think that in some of these examples, people who opposed these illegal acts would have considered them as "stealing".
The intellectual property cases is an example of this where some people think the "illegal" acts are stealing intellectual property where others feel it is there right and duty to a higher ideal.
Of course these opinions are subjective. It is safe to say that some people consider these "hackers" to be "cool"-- even though you might not agree.
I habitually mistrust those who appeal to a "higher ideal" in justification of criminal behavior. As far as concerns outlaws who have changed society, the only examples i know of in history are those who rise to (or descend to, depending upon one's point of view) the level of outright revolution. I don't deny it is true, but i can't recall at the moment examples of criminality which attain to the level of higher moral ideals. Your example of Harriet Tubman might qualify, although it is worth noting that she was not a lone "outlaw" defying the majesty of the law as it then stood. She was certainly a sterling figure, and a courageous woman, but her defiance of the law was not solitary, and was in fact part and parcel of a much larger movement, the eventual result of which was the revolution which we call the Civil War. Harper's Weekly has become an invaluable resource for the point of view of Northerners during the Civil War, and their coverage of the war was published in book form after the war. They used the term "Revolution at the North" to describe the reaction of the North to the secession and the attack on Fort Sumter in South Carolina. Although they were being melodramatic, the term they use was quite commonly used then, and many Northerners--acknowledging that there was justification for slavery and for the return of escaped slaves in the Constitution--considered that a war to liberate slaves would be a revolutionary act. Perhaps you could provide some more examples of what you consider to have been examples of "outlaws" who have changed society. In the case of Tubman, you have someone whose only character as "outlaw" was her defiance of the provision of the third paragraph of Article IV, Section 2 of the Constitution, which reads: No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, But shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due., which was voided by the ratification of the XIIIth Amendment. I know of no other criminal behavior which it may be reasonably alleged that she indulged in, which would justify otherwise describing her as an outlaw.
I hardly think that the actions with which this thread concerns itself rise to level of Harriet Tubman's heroic efforts. It seems to me that you are "over-emoting" here.
Somewhat apropo, here's a fellow who was a hero to some, at least for a while:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvatore_Giuliano
I just saw the movie Christ Stopped at Eboli again, and there is a discussion in it between the Carlo Levi character and the local mayor in the town Levi was exiled by Mussolini to. The discussion occupied several scenes at different phases of the movie, but at one point did center on the mayor's lack of understanding of or symapathy for the peasants, and Levi's efforts to give him a clue. Levi went on about the people he had met in the desolated town, and how how they didn't respect the state, Rome, much less Turin, or World War I, that whoever was in power, nothing changed in their hardscrabble lives. (Thus, Christ never got to what was then Lucania, now, Basilicata.) Thus they could have a bandit as a hero.
(not the exact quote, but I don't have Levi's book at hand.)
Yes, i'm sure some adherents of la cosa nostra are considered heroic by those who benefit from their activities. This joker is a prime example of precisely the kind of mythologizing to which i object. Thanks for bringing him up.
He's not my hero, but I can understand him having a following.
According to the article you linked, his "following" were those who benefited from his criminal activities. I have no doubt that many banditti in history have had "followings."
You don't have to have "good intentions" in order to be part of pressure for social change.
The criminal actitivities that led the overturn of prohibition are interesting history, and they have been romanticized (anyone of my generation grew up with a love of the Dukes of Hazzard).
I don't think anyone would say that most of the outlaws who provided the impetus to overturn prohibition were out for anything but profit, and the customers who frequented speakeasy's only wanted a good time.
But I still enjoy having a Rum and Coke from time to time.
I don't take strong drink, myself . . . too many bad times when i was young.
I don't see that any particular social benefit accrued either from the prohibition of alcoholic beverages, or the defiance of that prohibition.
and i thought the devil was sending a secret message to all his realatives and friends here on earth .
(decided to go to church tonight !
simon gledhill - famous english theatre organ virtuoso will be playing :
1 Up, Up and Away
2 In A Country Lane
3 Selections from The Vagabond King
4 Look Likey
5 Anyone Can Whistle
6 Montmartre
7 Hooray for Hoosiers!
- I'll Be With You In apple Blossom Time
- The Nearness of You
- My Heart Belongs to Daddy
8 You're Mind, You
9 The Boulevardier
10 All Over the Place
11 The Willow Waltz
12 Harold Arlen Remembered
13 Lush Life
or what did you expect ?
kingston has canada's largest theatre organ - which happpens to be installed in local anglican church !
BLESS THE ANGLICANS !)
hbg
