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US Soldiers have their own deck of cards of most wanted

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2003 12:35 pm
If promises are broken by the big brass, how much confidence can the foot soldier have in their command? Yes, no, yes, no, yes, no, yes, no. Yeah, four times they were promised to return home on rotation. Who wouldn't be demoralized? c.i.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2003 12:38 pm
I think you've gone right to the heart of it, c.i. Had they been told upfront that their tour would be one year, they may not have liked it, and as others here have noted, griping is the perogative of the soldier. But they'd have known, their families would have known, they could have dealt with it. This arises, in my opinion, from Rummy and Bush being so clueless about what they were getting into in the first place.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2003 12:50 pm
Still "Clueless in DC"
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2003 08:12 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
I read your post again. My comments still stand. I think he was right on. This story is based on so little a statistical sampling that it's hardly relevant.


Bullshit!

Scrat said "all" -- and I disagreed with the "all." She was engaging in hyperbole. I was accurate. You are not being accurate.

Quote:
To steal fresco's line, discussing it is to reify. I think you were wrong to try to assert that he has a tendency for hyperbole and distortion. In this thread I saw much more hyperbole and distortion from you than from him.


How about a few examples instead of such broad brush bullshit.


Quote:
Many times you made comments about something not explicitly said. Sure nobody was asserting that the story represents the opinion of the whole but they were indeed seizing on an insignificant story and making hay with it.

In that context Scrat is right to question the validity of the sampling. Sure he could have made his case a bit more waterproof by not saying that it was an attempt to respresent the whole but IMO it is an attempt to make a mountain out of a molehill.


If anyone is making a mountain out of a molehill -- and struggling and torturing logic and reason to try to make a point -- it is you, Craven.

What I said was accurate. What you said is not accurate -- and now you are trying to weasel your way out of a mistake.

Quote:
At any given moment you can find 10 dissillusioned people. Such a fact is relevant only in rare contexts and IMO this is not one of them. To combat this argument you seize on a logomachy and ignore the greater point that: this is only a few soldiers whining about their deployment.




MY GUESS: Goddam near every soldier in Iraq right now wants to be back in the United States -- AND IT IS, IN EFFECT, BECAUSE THEY OPPOSE THE WAR.

Whether they oppose the war or not is not necessary to anything I am saying -- but I suspect, in effect, they oppose the war, because this crap that is going on right now IS PART OF THE GODDAM WAR.

Just because the moron in chief said the war is over doesn't mean the war actually is over -- any more than Nixon declaring victory and pulling out of Vietnam meant that we actually had a victory. (That was a bit of intentional hyperbole!)

The war is still being fought. My guess is almost all the soldiers over there want to get the hell out.

Any soldier over there who is not does not want out of Iraq is a mental case.


Quote:
I wish it were more, I wish that they'd start disliking the policies that I dislike but this is simply not the case. So my next wish is for less partisan crap. It's possible to despise a course of action without coloring one's every thought and opinion with it.

And such is life, we disagree.


We more than disagree!

Your posts indicate that you have lost objectivity. Apparently you are more interested in defending your ill-conceivably support for this pathetic war (and in saying that I am wrong) than in doing logical thinking.

Try to get your objectivity back. You look terrible without it.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2003 08:48 pm
We'll just have to continue to disagree Frank, both about the issue at hand and my objectivity, which you grant me only when I agree with you and denounce when I don't.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2003 06:25 am
Craven de Kere wrote:
We'll just have to continue to disagree Frank, both about the issue at hand and my objectivity, which you grant me only when I agree with you and denounce when I don't.


That is even more abject bullshit, Craven, and you know it.

I do not question your objectivity only when you agree with me -- nor do I do it with anyone else. I often go out of my way to acknowledge a point well-made and well-conceived even when I am 180 degrees out of sync with it.

Your objectivity in your atheism is a point in question. I defy you to point out even once where I ever questioned your objectivity when discussing the fundamental differences between you and me on atheistic takes versus agnostic takes.

I haven't.

But here, your objectivity has gone out the window.

Scrat wrote:

Quote:
My point has nothing to do with semantics. It deals with the willingness some people show to assert that the opinion expressed by an insignificant sample represents the opinion of the whole.


I responded:

Quote:
Hummm....I wonder if anyone in this thread has actually expressed the opinion that an "insignificant sample represents the opinion of the whole"...

...or if that is just another example of Scrat's tendency toward distortion and hyperbole?



CRAVEN: SCRAT'S WORDS WERE HYPERPOLE!

No one here in A2K or in any magazine or newpaper that I have read or heard cited EVER came even close to suggesting that the (admittedly SMALL) "insignificant sample" represents the opinion of the whole.

That was something she made up in order to mock it.

People have been saying that the sample MAY represent A SIGNIFICANT OPINION -- and if I am allowed to have a guess here, my guess would be that a significant number of soldiers over in Iraq now see this part of the war (the war that definitely is not yet over) as being poorly conceived.

But you apparently are so interested in taking a shot at me here, you cannot even acknowledge that.

Drop this discussion if you want -- but don't pretend it is because I am being unreasonable.

In any case, my point to the other people in this thread (outside of this nonsense that Scrat is trying to push) is that...

...this war is not over. This part of the war is as significant as the opening part -- and must be considered (and will be considered by historians) when deciding whether the war was properly planned and managed...

...and that the dissatisfaction of the kind being reported (yes, soldiers always have griped and always will gripe) indicates a dissatisfaction with the overall conduct of the war seldom seem before.

All this may be a function of our new technical abilities to cover these kinds of things -- BUT THERE MIGHT BE MORE INVOLVED.

I hope some of you see this more clearly than Craven can.


(Setanta -- how about you?)
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2003 07:20 am
I don't think Scrat is always wrong, by any stretch...

But Craven, I do think there is a destructive manner of argument which defeats the very kind of discussion we're all seeking in A2K. Overkill, hyperbole, black/white, setting up straw men, cutting in with red herrings, and caricaturing -- all these are tools of deliberate bad manners in argument. We're all guilty of them at one time or another. But not to the extent that one finds them in Scrat and many others who have visited these discussions. "Bad manners" and the attempt to control any discussion have become the "in" style of a particular political group. They apparently feel clever, modern, smart, in charge. But there's nothing new in what they're doing. "Gothic" and other adolescents are doing it all the time, and have done so since I can remember. We've all done it. And then we grew up and realized sharing a conversation is much more satisfying than controlling one.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2003 08:47 am
I think for some people, it is easier to attempt to control the argument, to deny everything someone else posits, rather than face the reality that things are not as we would wish them to be. Certainly there are those who argue just for arguments sake--but for many others, admission of their errors, their falibities, their niavete, is to face throwing out all they believe. For many others, it means facing their selfish and uncompassionate views of others; they would rather argue fine points and red herrings than admit to any responsibility for the quality of the world in which they live, and for the others with whom they inhabit that world.
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2003 10:02 am
Setanta
Setanta, thank you for your civility comments. I agree completely. But you are too kind.

As the originator of this topic, I really get annoyed at those who persistently turn topics into verbal combat when it is not called for. Frankly, it is disrespectful to the topic's originator to get off topic for the sake of a pissing match.

If those wanting to engage in such boring gladiator sport of interest only to the participants, then please do us all a favor and use private messages instead of inflicting your lack of courtesy on the rest of us. We actually might like to discuss the topic of this thread.

Hopefully---BumbleBeeBoogie
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2003 03:42 pm
Frank,

Again, we will simply have to disagree. It's a molehill bud.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2003 03:57 pm
Is it possible that the old standard which demands very specific loyalties from soldiers needs updating? In the past it's been responsible for coverups which shouldn't have been covered up. Maybe a new standard is needed. Progress, etc.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2003 06:12 pm
I place a great deal of this problem with the reporter. They are the responsible party that should not be divulging names, they know better. It is the same story; but, they don't have a soldier in trouble. Now, it may be hard to get other candid statements.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2003 08:15 pm
Craven

BumbleBee has invited us to shut up.

Sounds reasonable to me.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2003 08:22 pm
Mums the word.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2003 08:58 pm
Edited to remove evidence of late night incompetence . . .
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2003 09:23 pm
Tartarin wrote:
Is it possible that the old standard which demands very specific loyalties from soldiers needs updating? In the past it's been responsible for coverups which shouldn't have been covered up. Maybe a new standard is needed. Progress, etc.


That's an interesting area to investigate. There have quite a wide variety of methods to get private soldiers. The ancient Chinese had "military colonists," basically, peasant families uprooted and placed on the frontier by fiat of the Imperial bureaucracy. They had little opportunity to train, and were usually badly exploited by their leaders. Given the attitude of the Mandarins, i doubt that they were believed to have any thoughts, let alone opinions. In contrast, in the late 1500's, Gustav Vasa, in founding a vigorous but unstable dynasty that brought Sweden both empire and near destruction, established military colonists on his frontier with Denmark (which then controlled the southernmost province in Sweden). He took good care of the soldiers and their families, had and enforced regulations on clothing (the quality and type, no one wore uniforms in those days), weapons, training, as well as the quality of housing the and upkeep of the farms or small shops they ran. The royal government got apprentices for them, and hired farmhands and helpers from among the poorest classes, to assure that soldiers could train, and leave their families to go on campaign without worrying about their livelihood. His illustrious grandson, Gustav II Adolph, known to history as Gustavus Adolphus, made the finest army in the world of this material. Sweden had a unique feudal system in Europe: whereas other nations recognized three "estates"--clergy, commons (read here, middle class, then a small class, and well above peasants) and the aristocracy--Sweden recognized a fourth, the "Bonde," who were the equivalent of serfs, but who were never tied to a parcel of land as were serfs elsewhere in Europe. Gustav Vasa was able to take the throne by an alliance with the Bonde, and certain members of the mercantile portion of the commons who saw their main chance in his rise. Vasa assured the peasants that Lutheranism would be protected, and for generations, the peasants of Sweden looked to the crown as their bulwark, and protection from the greed and venality of the Commons and the Nobility. The clergy also had a stake in it, the Lutherans at any event. I don't know that any private soldier may have voiced his opinion to Gustavus Adolphus while on campaign, but it would not have been that unusual. After G.A. died at Lutzen in 1632, his toddler daughter, Christina succeeded him. She is arguably one of the most intelligent women of which there is an historical record; she was also, like so many in Gustav Vasa's line, mentally unstable, although in her case it was simply unreliability. She decided to convert to Catholicism, and so, announced that she would abdicate, remaining on the throne until a sastisfactory successor was found. Many reliabel observers have reported that old peasant men and women would approach her in the street (simpler times, and the Vasa were "accessible") with tears in their eyes, calling her mother (she was about 32 or 33), and begging her not to abandon her "children."

When Rome began her career of conquest, an army larger than the city legion was needed. The Plebs threatened at one point to abandon the city (something they actually did twice in politcal struggles over other issues), if the Senate did not pay them while they were on campaign. The current of mistrust between Plebs and Patres ran so deep, that in one horrible wrangle, the only way out was the establishment of the office of military tribune (tribune from the same origin as tribe--the tribes weres the voting organizations of the city) in an attempt to protect the interests of the Plebs. In the early history of the Republican Empire, the private soldier would indeed express his opinion, and knew that the military tribunes (almost always chosen from their class--they cried foul when Senators son's were appointed) would back them up, if they had a legitimate complaint. With the rise of the principiate empire, the legions were recruited from outside Latinium, and there was no longer a situation in which the common foot were citizens as well as soldiers. In the glory days of the Principiate Empire, in fact, it was what is now called the "French Heavy Infantry,"--recruited from among the Germano-Celtic peoples of eastern Gaul--who made the army strong.

The tribes which eventually overran Gaul were the Salian and Ripurian Franks. These were actually tribal confederations--the Ubi, Chatti, Cherusci, Suebi, Treveri and others who had been unwilling to bow to the Romans, but were being crushed between the upper stone of Gothic migration out of Sweden, and the nether stone of the Roman frontier on the Rhine. Eventually, the Salian Franks absorbed the Ripurian Franks, by the simple expedient of an assassination, and a strategic marriage to the orphaned daughter. They used what became known as the feudal levy--all free men (Frank comes from a Germanic word of the time meaning a free man) were obliged to show up with a horse and their arms, to a certain specification of quality and type. Later on, the "man at arms" arose from the residue of the Franks who did not actually make nobility of themselves by grabbing land and founding estates. During the middle ages, the "chevalier," the man at arms on a horse, was the star athlete of the day. Competition in tournaments made them famous, and served as a résumé for soliciting employment. These men were an independent breed, and if they didn't like the way things were going with their employer, they definitely would say so, and they might well decide to stand by and watch while a battle took place, even if it meant the defeat of their employer. A famous example of this is the Earl of Norfolk, raised to that dignity by Richard III, in return for military support--and he kept his men standing by and watched Richard go down to defeat, and his death, against Henry Tudor at Bosworth in 1485. The Spaniards, the very name of whose infantry, the Tercios, struck fear into the hearts of peasants and commoners all over Europe, were allowed to sack cities, even allied cities which had not been beseiged, when their masters could not pay them. The "Rape of Antwerp" is the classic example, but by no means the only one.

By the time of the Dutch War of Rebellion, which lasted for more than eighty years, and the Thirty years war, soldiers, whether a mounted knight or a swordsman or pikeman or halberdier on foot, were largely mercenary. The Thirty Years War, the French wars of the Fronde and the English Civil Wars not only exhausted the resources of Western Europe, but put a deep mistrust of peasant armies into the minds of the rulers of those lands. By the time of Louis XIV and the War of the Spanish Succession, private soldiers were recruited for a set period, usually ten or twenty years. After Peter the Great, the Russian army's private soldiers were those unlucky or insufficiently evasive enough to have gotten caught by the conscription officers, and they served for life. General Burgoyne referred to what had once been praised as "stout English yoemen" as "the scum of the earth." Washington often complained to the Continental Congress about the quality of the troops recruited by the state recruiters; in one letter he complained about getting "nothing but drunkards and negroes." As might well be imagined, no one consulted these men on their opinions, and with flogging common for even petty offenses, i'd imagine they tended to keep their mouths shut, and carp to one another while in their cups.

The French Revolution changed all of that. Whereas Louis XIV had astounded all of the continent by keeping an army of hired privates mounting to as much as 100,000 in the field each year, the wars of the French Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars brought a sea change to the compostion of armies. The Commitee for Public Safety, headed by Robspierre and Hébert, declared la patrie en danger, the fatherland in danger, in 1792, and the first of the great levées en masse took place. At the "Battle of the Nations" near Leipsic in 1813, Napoleon, with about 200,000 mostly raw, untrained troops, faced nearly half-a-million Russians, Prussians and Austrians. The levée en masse of the period of the wars of the Revolution regularized the concept of conscription, and often, a nationalistic pride meant the private soldier served and fought with a will and a devotion not known since the days of primitive militias, many centuries before. Militia per se, has usually proven to be very unreliable, given their propensity to think of something better to do at the critical moment. The difference between recruited professional and militia has shown up time an again: at Bladensburg, in Maryland in 1814, about 7000 Virginia and Maryland militia were backing up fewer than 200 Marines, and about 500-600 sailors from the ridiculous "gunboat navy" of Jefferson, which was mostly at the bottom of the Chesapeake at that point. The militia got a good look at Packenham's veteran's of the Pennisular Campaign (Wellington in Spain), threw down their arms, and ran home as fast as their little legs would carry them. The sailors and Marines stayed around for the dance--one English officer wrote home that the sailors "stood to their guns after all of their officers had been shot down, and we were among them with the bayonet." The Marines fought the Brits to a standstill, and retreated to Washington at sundown, taking all of their dead and wounded with them--which was most of the force by that time. Volunteers in our early history, however, have done quite well--Jackson's men at New Orleans who defeated and badly mauled Packenham's veterans, and killed Packenham, were mostly volunteers form New Orleans, Kentucky and Tennessee--it became such a matter of pride in Tennessee to volunteer for national service, that they still call themselves the "Volunteer State." United States Volunteers, and United States Colored Troops (the USCT were volunteers to a man) were the backbone of Mr. Lincoln's army. In the anonimity of a great mass of men, both cheers and jeers were common. Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson was frightfully hard on his men, but he was a winner, and soldiers love that. They would cheer him whenever he came around, even soldiers of the Army of Northern Virginia who had never served under him. His own men called him Old Jack, and they would often say to one another, while marching in the rain: "Let's make Old Jack get his head wet." They would cheer, knowing he would remove his cap in acknowledgement. By contrast, the USCT troops, who enjoyed a relationship of confidence and respect with their white officers, would make of point of remaining absolutely silent, with no expression on their faces, when an officer whom they knew or suspected of being prejudiced against blacks would pass by--the lack of notice being known by all to be a great insult.

But modern armies are larger still, and since the First World War, the United States has depended upon the National Guard (with the notable exception of the Vietnam War). "Citizen soldiers" do just as well as the volunteers in our past; they are less likely, however, to be as impressed with military protocol. MacArthur's boys in the "Rainbow Division" in the First World War (he was assistant division commander, and had full command of them during the final offensive) had a great respect and affection for him. In the southwest Pacific, in World War II, the G.I.'s were less enchanted; many openly expressed their contempt or hatred, and he was commonly known as "Dugout Doug"--an unjust accusation that he kept his head down while they fought.

The advent of the "all volunteer army" is unique in our history. Throughout the 1950's and -60's, conscription continued, and provided the large forces needed in Europe and the far East. Vietnam changed a lot of things--insubordination was rife and quite open. Soldiers pushed the limits, and on far too many occassions, tried to and sometimes succeeded in murdering officers they did not like or trust. How the dynamics work today is not clear; what is clear is that there are no precedents in our history for the type of army we have, given its volunteer nature coupled with its size.
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2003 11:29 pm
Setanta
Setanta, WOW! what an amazing summary of the world's various military organizations or disorganizations. I hope Asherman (also a superb military historian) reads your post and responds.

---BumbleBeeBoogie
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2003 05:31 am
First, nice work Setanta, I drank my whole cup of coffee and ate my breakfast with all those troops. Wonderful work. On the Nam era grunt, I guess you could say you get what you get when you draft kids and then put them in peril without a plan or inspired leadership.

==
I've been thinking about BillW's comment on publishing the names in the story. A reporter has to ask if he can publish a name, but those guys didn't think about what might be the consequences of giving that permission and too, it's likely that the story would have had less import or even been spiked (as Craven would do with it anyway) if the reporter had used anonymous sources.
People like to be on TV, I remember once we had a reporter covering an arrest line, you know, a prep walk, all those schlubs with their handcuffed hands over their faces, well this one joe doesn't cover up. He looks right at the camera as he goes by and says "Look Ma, I'm on TV!
And some people don't realize what it means to be interviewed, they don't think that what they say will actually become part of the news. Remember when Connie Chung got in trouble for broadcasting Newt's mom's comments about Hillary? Newt's mom was in a interview but thought somehow that the really juicy parts would stay out of the public's ears and eyes, that when Connie said faceticiously 'just between you and me' that it would be. Shucks, Ma, you're on TV!

Here's the thing, a reporter asks the question, he reports the answer. If he asks "How are you feeling about being here?" he is just as likely to get a positive "Great, sir. We are on a important mission and bringing freedom to these people." answer as not.

Print the news.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2003 06:34 am
Terrific, Setanta!

Having a citizen army, AND a military which is very precisely subject to civilian control, puts the soldier in a weird position, being, as s/he is, boss of the commanders as well as in their control. There are structures to get around this paradox, of course, but I'm grateful for the fact that soldiers DO speak out and wish it were more common -- or perhaps more common for us to listen.

Agree with Print the News, Joe. Sheesh -- if only they would...
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2003 07:10 am
Off to the beach for a week,

be well,

J
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