Is 'liking children' wrong, if you don't harm kids?

Gee, why do posts so often degenerate into name-calling?

There's nothing wrong with someone having their own opinion, no matter how many people here disagree with it, and they shouldn't have to be called a resident extremist simpleton or a psycho.

Stepping gingerly around the mud . . . there is an interesting and related story in the news in Canada today. The University of Lethbridge (Alberta) and the University of Toronto are now at the center of a storm of controversy over a study which is planned which will pay those convicted as or declared to be paedophiles to view pictures of children and adults (clothed). It seems from the several reports which i have heard on the radio, that much of the uproar comes from the fact that the participants are to be paid.

Article from the Chronicle-Journal, Thunder Bay, Ontario.

I'm sorry everyone if I got caught up in the fray, I really do want to discuss this more intelligently....Unforntuanalty the extremism got to me.

I personally don't mind being called a simpleton, probably because I am :wink:

I am interested though in where people consider childhood ending and adulthood beginning.

I don't believe there's some magic age. Up until the last page I was in my mind considering all this with the mind toward young children, like 5, 6, 7.... My feelings towards that are different than a 12 or 13 year old, or 16, 17, 18....Molestation, will effect the person differently if they are 5, or 16.

That's why I was saying it's not a child problem as much as a people problem. Sure adults have a bigger vocabulary and can express themselves more accurately, but, taking an example of a person who in their private life is being treated let's say as a submissive, and has no power of choice over their sexuality in the sanctuary of their home. Depending on the extent of suppression, they could be no more able to deal with it than a 12 year old.

Also...If someone aged 8 can be said to be a victim of pedophilia, the same could be said about a 30 year old.

To me, I don't feel it's accurate to say the 30 WAS a victim of pedophila if they've never gotten over it. They still ARE a victim of pedophila, the same as the 8 year old.

We are all products of our past.

I would say this to one who thinks he may commit a sexual crime:

You can be helped. You can lead a normal life. Call a reputable therapist and ask for it. If you have already committed a crime, call a lawyer first and get a referral from him/her.

Some jurisdictions have treatment programs in lieu of incarceration.

Weird, Set.

Neo, i think it's only "weird" because the subjects of the study are paedophiles. Studies of this type are routinely done with university students, with members of the general population, and are often done with convicted "offenders" of other criminal statutes--and paying at least a nominal fee for someone's time to cooperate with the study is pretty common. I think the uproar is occurring only because these are paedophiles, or alleged paedophiles.

Okay, then let me ask you a question.

Let's assume there's this guy named....ummmm...oh, let's just pick a random name out of the air...how about "Bill?" Yeah, that works. There's this guy named Bill. One day Bill realizes that he is having these thoughts about hurting or molesting little children. More than thoughts, actually. More like cravings. So Bill the child molester knows he's getting close to a point where he might not be able to control himself anymore. He's thinking that he will probably go out and do somebody harm if something isn't done.

Bill's choices of how to deal with this are:

A) Go to a counselling center, police station, psych ward, hospital or other such facility and seek professional help for his problem.

B) Have himself neutered at a local hospital.

C) Blind himself so as to virtually disqualify himself from any predatory activity.

D) Pull out a gun and blow his own head off.

Which is the best option for all concerned?

"A", of course. But for some this is about venting their own natural repulsion than actually advocating reasonable solutions to those who want to fight their sickness.

To answer the original question: it's as wrong as thinking about, say, killing your boss, or becoming aroused at a rape scene. It does, of course, have deeper implications than those fleeting thoughts but my point is that all humans have had despicable impulses and thoughts. Not acting on these thoughts and not feeding the fantasies separate very brave people from those who cause very great harm.

But that's just a sacrificial offering to the concept of staying on topic and not what I'm really replying for. The last couple days I've wanted to reply to some of the sheer ignorance and posturing on the thread but really didn't want to get into it for fear I'd be unable to do so civilly. I've decided to just post my opinion and recuse myself from the argument, so please don't be upset if I ignore replies. I just want to tell my own story of how I learned to approach pedophilia more constructively.

---------------------------

Sexual abuse rightly disgusts the average human. When children are involved our base instincts to protect our young further stimulate our "ick factor" and this is a human instinct that is essential to the survival of our species. I'm glad so many people have such a vicseral distaste for pedophilia as it's a big part of why it isn't more common but it's just plain fucking sad how many people channel this revulsion into idiotic swagger and "solutions" to this abuse that aren't helpful at all. We are intelligent enough to have a more nuanced point of view than our base instincts provide. I've been able to more constructively channel my replulsion to pedophilia and I hope that some of those who hold some of the more ignorant viewpoints on this thread can one day do the same.

I do, however, understand the reactions as I've long wrestled with the anger pedophila inspires in me. When I understood psychology to a far lesser degree than I do now, mostly due to the nameless faceless concept sexual abuse was to me, I felt little other than unmitigated rage at the concept of sexual abuse. When my first girlfriend told me how she was abused as a child by someone I had known, and who was never punished, my anger was such that it was likely caustic to the relationship itself and was certainly not helpful to her own healing process. Within a few weeks another friend told me he'd been molested by another man I knew and that this man was merely sent to another country to evade authorities. I indulged my fury and began to embark on a personal crusade against those who had harmed these two as well as other childhood friends whose abuse I was rapidly discovering. I wanted justice and I wanted revenge and I went about it with all the tact of a big fucking buffoon, not realizing I was doing it for me more so than them.

When the second man's son commited suicide and he exhibited a calloused attitude to it I came closer than I'd like to admit to endeavoring to murder him. One of my childhood friends recently did precisely that, murdering one of his childhood abusers in 2005 before taking his own life. A lot of my childhood peers are consumed by a similar rage that he had had. Many of us who want justice have approached it from with similar insensitivity that I once exuded and of which this thread is replete.

What this rage often blinds the individual to is just how counter-productive knee-jerk reactions to abuse are. Like a bull in a china shop I decided I would get justice for all my childhood peers and proceeded to ham-handedly start my own witch hunt. The reactions from the generation I was targeting was unsurprisingly wary of my efforts (which harmed my ability to garner information from some of the abuser's peers who themselves were innocent of abuse). I remember being shocked to see someone say "watch out for this cat" when I agressively started pursuing justice and was agressively soliciting help from adults who were as angry as I was. But what surprised me more was the reactions from some of the abuse victims themselves.

Despite the harm some of the abuse caused it was much more complex than I realized and not everyone was with me on my crusade. Real life isn't like in the movies, where there's an epic struggle of pure good versus pure evil and I was taken aback by some of the victims' reactions to me. When I asked my girlfriend why she'd never told me, or anyone, of the repeated abuse she endured she responded with frustration saying "because of reactions like yours." The shame and guilt she felt made her suffer in silence, knowing that fucktards like me would have tactlessly exacerbated her pain. The rage I exhibited only set her back in her healing process and made her feel "like damaged goods when you talk like that".

What made it even more twisted was that many of the victims were abused by people toward whom they still held affection, making the abuse all the more painful and my simplistic need to kill their dragons that much more innappropriate. I know it's very hard to comprehend but some of the abusers were genuinely good people who unwittingly caused great harm. It was a concept that took me a very long time to reconcile and while this does not excuse any of their actions and make punishment any less deserved it highlighted how a simple "good vs. evil" movie ending wasn't in store for us.

I began to discover that many very kind individuals I knew had caused great harm. I discovered that a woman who was like a second mother to me had done things I'd not been able to imagine. I discovered sympathy from victims for the children of the abusers at times. One girl who'd struggled to find her own healing without justice begged me not to take down her best friends only parent, "he's all she has" she pleaded. In short, it wasn't going to be as easy as I thought and some of the ones most harmed by the abuse were able to demonstrate much more level-headedness than I was able to conjure.

I now had to come to terms with the abusers not always being the callous monsters I had envisioned. I found sympathy for some of the very dragons I wanted to slay. I found an ex-abusers who had dedicated their lives to righting the wrongs they'd done and the realization that some of them were providing more help and healing to the victims than was I sent me reeling. So I backed off. I stopped trying to be the vigillante and spent a couple of years growing up and trying to help my peers in ways I was better equipped to with assistance with employment and other aspects on integration into society.

With the murder-suicide of 2005 I came back to my original goal of exposing the harm and unmasking the perpetrators with more tact and nuance by starting a project that has documented the abuse and has become the authority on the abuse I reference with everyone from academics to the FBI using the information that the group of volenteers and I have carefully collected. I now try to help with far greater sensitivity, and less rush toward judgement and demonization. I found myself helping the victims fight for the space they needed against other knuckle-heads who became vigillantes just like I was. I found surprising ways that even the most delicate attempts to further justice can have complications I'd not been able to imagine (e.g. I was surprised at just how many abuse victims didn't even want their abusers brought to justice as they'd developed new lives and didn't want to bring their new peers into their previous hell for reasons ranging from employment prospects to plain embarrassment).

I've run into very brave people who struggled to fight their own urges and gained respect and sympathy that I'd never thought possible and have learned just how complex all of this is. I rejoice in that at least one of these abusers has now done jail time but lament that he probably would never have acted on his cronophilia if he was not put into a situation in which he lived with unsupervised kids and was indoctrinated to believe it was not wrong. It's another life wasted and if one truely empathizes with humans this should be sad to you, the ability to hate pedophilia should not be mutually exclusive with the ability to pity the wasted lives of the pedophiles, some of whom are doing more to prevent pedophilia than you or I ever will (note that pedophilia is a condition that does not need realization to qualify as pedophilia).

Righteous indignation, as 'righteous' as it may seem, is such a primitive approach to as complex an issue as pedophilia. So crude I hold, that it is itself a disservice to its own cause. It further stigmatizes victims of sexual abuse, demonstrates an ignorance of paraphilia and how the human mind works and is ultimately little more than self-serving posturing that makes people feel good about themselves and alleviates some of the discomfort the "ick factor" causes while doing nothing at all to help the victims or propose real ways to address the problem for pedophiles who don't want to cause harm.

All too often, this righteous indignation re-victimizes the abused, harms preventative measures, and forces sexual abuse into a deeper darker places. It's an inordinate downside to being able to vent repulsion of paraphilia and feel better about one's self and has no place in reasoned discourse on pedophilia.

Great post, Craven.

Thank you for the post, Craven.

I liked your post, Craven.

Great point about knee-jerk reactions having the unwanted effect of re-victimizing.
There is a lot you said there, that I couldn't but wanted to.

Craven, just read your post.

Thank you.

Ditto; Craven

Craven; you make a compelling argument. To the extent my visceral reactions and sharp edged suggestions may cause additional discomfort to victims of this type of atrocity; I apologize. That is certainly not my intent. I admire your compassion, just as I do Deb's, and have for years of reading your opinions on this and related subjects. However:
Empathy for humans isn't necessarily unconditional. My position serves no rage. It doesn't make me feel better than anyone or good in any way. It is a simple reflection of the truth of how I feel. I have no empathy whatsoever for rapists and child molesters. I believe wholeheartedly that the human gene pool could only be improved if more of these monsters remove themselves from it. The simple fact is; dead people don't molest children…

The equation: Molested child Vs. Dead pedophile is a no-brainer, IMHO. And I won't lose a second's sleep over the suggestion.

As for the charge of ignorance. Yep. Guilty… and I intend to stay that way. I have no desire to learn to give a **** about child molesters and rapists. I'm sure Jeffrey Dahmer had some redeeming human qualities too, but I couldn't rightly care less.

Bill, I admire that you are standing by what you said think and feel (and I say this regardless of my opinion on this issue). Not everyone has to think the same about all things and this is what makes this world so wonderful. Freedom of thought, if not speech.

I had planned to leave this thread for good, because of not wanting to waste time on what was clearly a no rational discussion exchange with a few here...but I came to read Craven's response, and saw something I hadn't noticed before>


Calamity Jane, you said:

"Frankly, I am even more puzzled about your accusations of me being
dangerous. You claim to be the therapist. You certainly have violated
just about every stance there is. "


This particular comment leads me to think that, if you explain it, I may be able to get to understand what on earth is driving some of the stuff that has been posted here.

Can you explain how you think I have "violated every stance" please?


I thought I had explained very well how your attitude, when, as I said, combined with the same attitude on the part of large numbers of others is dangerous, but I am happy to explain again, though I think Craven and a number of others here have also explained it.

The danger is twofold:

1. If people who ever have sexual thoughts about children think they will be condemned out of hand, treated with loathing and contempt, and that there is no hope that they can ever not act on their impulses, they are very unlikely to be open and honest about their feelings and seek help...which, when done correctly, includes great attention to safety rules and boundaries,

This is why I do not conside the comments of those of you who are saying such things as just babble on a web site. People do google discussions such as this, people do read them, and, as I said, if even one person adopts a more useful attitude to the problem through reading this discussion, that is a good.


Did you notice, in the couple of examples I gave, how the reactions of friends and family to a situation where, clearly, there was no possibility of the person going to prison, because they had committed no crime, assisted to keep things safe? Can you see how millions of Bills and CJs help create a milieu where confronting desires for kids becomes very difficult to do?

Our friends told people...and these people helped them to do what they wanted to do.....not abuse kids.

Had we reacted with disgust, or had they known that we WOULD react with disgust and rejection, told them to go kill themselves, whatever, what do you think might have been different?



I said:


If someone is dealing with such desires, do you think it better that they are in a circle of people aware of, and able to assist with, them? That they feel able to ask for help if they feel about to act, or that they deal with the impulses alone and in secrecy? That they are able to seek help with behavioural and cognitive structures to minimize and deal with temptation, or that they are struggling in secrecy?


CJ said:
Sorry, I missed that part, where I insisted they deal with their "addiction"
alone and in secrecy, or are you again speculating what must be my
opinion? No one would dispute that pedophiles need help and assistance,
and you will not find a statement of mine that is contradictory.
Quote:
The greatest friend of abuse, in my mind, is secrecy and shame.


I agree!


Ok...then this may be another point where I can come to understand what you are saying.

You state all people who have a fantasy about a kid will abuse a kid, and that people better not tell you about their desires. What would you do if someone did tell you?

How can you then say that you think people might be helped by acknowledging their problem and seeking help? You say they will all become abusers....how would you promulgating such an incorrect position in any way lead to people seeking help, or a belief that you think there is any point in their doing so? How would a friend of yours with such impulses, hearing your words, do anything but slink away in shame.


You haven't said they should not seek help, but you have said they cannot ever BE helped, and you say you (and presumably all of us????) should have no compassion or understanding, as far as I can see.

If I am wrong, tell me. I would love to be wrong about you in relation to this. How WOULD you treat a friend who came to you asking for help?


2. People, en masse, promulgating such views as yours and Bill's, help maintain a societal milieu where people find it hard to acknowledge, even in themselves, dangerous impulses towards kids.

(Do those of you with the primitive "disgust overwhelms all" reaction thing believe that acknowledging such feelings means that we are more likely to act on them, btw? Again, if you do, that would help me understand your position better.)


What we are coming to know about assisting those of us with scarred psyches is that THE ABILITY TO ACKNOWLEDGE AND REFLECT ON OUR FEELINGS AND BELIEFS IS STRONGLY ASSOCIATED WITH OUR NOT BLINDLY ACTING ON THEM TO THE DETRIMENT OF OTHERS.

TRAUMATISED PEOPLE .... AND MOST PAEDOPHILES HAVE SUFFERED TRAUMA OF ONE KIND OR ANOTHER.....ARE REALLY, REALLY, BAD AT THIS...PARTLY FOR NEUROLOGICAL REASONS (TRAUMA AFFECTS OUR FRONTAL LOBES REALLY, REALLY BADLY)...AND OUR MISSION WITH TRAUMATIZED PEOPLE IS, IN PART, TO HELP THEM OVERCOME THIS PROBLEM.

(Well, we always "knew" that....but now we have research on our side....especially in the attachment field)


Acknowledging and reflecting on them does NOT mean approving or promoting them.

Acknowledging and reflecting on them does NOT mean approving or promoting them.

Acknowledging and reflecting on them does NOT mean approving or promoting them.

Acknowledging and reflecting on them does NOT mean approving or promoting them.

Acknowledging and reflecting on them does NOT mean approving or promoting them.

Acknowledging and reflecting on them does NOT mean approving or promoting them.

Acknowledging and reflecting on them does NOT mean approving or promoting them.

Acknowledging and reflecting on them does NOT mean approving or promoting them.

Acknowledging and reflecting on them does NOT mean approving or promoting them.

Do the haters think that it does????????? Really?


The kind of hatred, blame, disgust that some of you promote, when shared by the dominant culture (in public....child abuse has always been performed, publicly or secretly, by those who can afford it, or who can get away with it....) creates shame in those who experience desires for kids...(and shame, as opposed to guilt, robs us of the ability to think rationally) creates a milieu which encourages irrational thought, beliefs that abusers are special, clever, people who have knowledge above the norm (see neocons, stalinists, religious cults etc.) and ruthlessly inhibits rational and merciful and realistic solutions.


I know emotions run high over such questions, but I was surprised to note professional libel occurring here.

The episodes have been recorded.

dlowan, please excuse my ignorance, but I have some questions about paedophiles.

1. Are there differences in paedophiles who are interested in very young children (under age 8, say), and those who prefer the pre-pubescent age?

2. What, in your opinion, attracts these people to youngsters?

3. Are there women paedophiles? If so, roughly what percentage of the total paedophile population do they constitute?

4. Are their impulses/desires controllabe/uncontrollable? I'm sure this is dependent upon the person involved, but, generally speaking, what would you say?

5. Does their 'activity', desire, etc. escalate over time, with or without any involvement of children?

6. Their 'activity' must differ according to the individual... what is the lowest form of paedophile behaviour?

7. What kind of treatment(s) work(s) best, and what are the varying success rates per treatments? I know this is generalizing, I'm sorry.