3
   

Is 'liking children' wrong, if you don't harm kids?

 
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2007 06:57 am
Is it wrong then for an 18 year old to dress up like a little girl for some man's fantasy?

She's "of age" but acting like a child....doesn't that fall under fantasizing about children?
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  0  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2007 04:53 pm
dlowan wrote:
Ok...I know you are plain wrong, factually speaking, in your claim:

"What I did say is that if one has sexual fantasies about children sooner or later will act upon it."
This is simply not true.
I am interested in where you get your absolutist belief about it and what back up you have?


dlowen, 2 pages ago I have asked you already for data to support
your claim
Quote:
If you have any data where pedophiles are successfully treated over a prolonged period of time, I would be very interested in seeing it.
which you have not replied to or
chose to ignore. Now you're telling me I am plain wrong and I should
supply data to you.

If this is the discussion style you're promoting, I don't mind, but you're
discrediting yourself here.


dlowen wrote:
Quote:
People can and do seek help for such fantasies......and I am personally aware of a number of people who have such fantasies and have not acted upon them.


No dispute here. Why shouldn't pedophiles seek help for such fantasies,
and if they have not acted upon them simply means over what period
of time, dlowen?


Quote:
That being said, such fantasies DO indeed frequently lead to abusive acts.


Right! As I feel that a pedophile cannot help himself to keep it at fantasies only.


Quote:
We do not have an agreed upon definition of paedophile, so I will have to come back later when I have a lot more time to respond to some of your previous posts.


Let the American Psychiatric Association define it for us:
The American Psychiatric Association in its main diagnostic manual, the DSM-IV TR, defines a pedophile as somebody who "over a period of six months, [has] recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges or behaviors involving sexually activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 or younger)".

---

So, according to the APA, a person having sexual fantasies about children is considered a pedophile.


Quote:
For that reason I would be raising my index of concern more in relation to the person who is seeking out stuff on the net to fuel their fantasies, since this person is, in my view, further down the track towards acting abusively. (Though individual circumstances might change my view re individual people.)


No objection here.


Quote:
If they are looking at internet porn featuring kids, they have ALREADY acted abusively, in my view, since their action in paying for the stuff, or supporting a site with such material, supports actual abuse of actual kids, and they are co abusers.

Also, online, they are very likely to be viewing material justifying child abuse, and thus they are at risk of having their cognitive and emotional inhibitions against abusing kids further compromised, as well as finding networks to inculcate them into networks training and assisting them in increasingly abusive activities.


I agree!
-----

Where we disagree in, dlowan, is the technicalities. You are assuming that pedophiles are curable with the right treatment, whereas I claim that
pedophiles cannot help themselves with their orientation, similar to
homosexuality, where you cannot "cure" the person into heterosexuality.
Pedophilia is a lifelong sexual preference towards children and most
clinical and forensic organizations will agree to this.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  0  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2007 05:11 pm
neologist wrote:
My wife and I are friends with a husband and wife team who specialize in the treatment of sexual offenders who are court ordered for treatment. Many of their patients are child molesters. They claim remarkable success. Of course, they screen those who they accept for treatment, so their results can arguably be described as skewed.

One of the biggest obstacles they face is the draconian attitude of society, reflected in lawmakers. Lets face it. When you're told you are the worst of the scum of the earth, deserving only of castration or firing squad, and incapable of change, you are not likely to seek treatment, especially knowing that treatment professionals are bound by law to report you to the authorities. Those who have not acted on their thoughts are likewise not inclined to step up for counseling, a condition they assure me is almost certain to lead to eventual disaster.

I have a great deal of respect for the work they do. They take an awful lot of flack for their efforts.

Personally, I don't believe there is any character disorder that cannot be overcome, albeit often with great effort.


I agree, neologist, that there isn't any character disorder that cannot
be overcome, however, I don't think pedophiles have character disorders. Researchers are torn if pedophilia is a neurological disorder or
not. A clinical study in Toronto at the Center for Addiction and Mental Health found that over 30 % of pedophiles are left-handed,supporting
the cause for a neurological disorder. Much more research is needed to
really determine the causes of pedophilia in order to truly understand
them.

As for the success rate in treating sex offenders, the statistics tell a
different tale. A comprehensive study at Princeton university found
this
Quote:
Bureau of Justice Statistics follow-up studies of sex offenders discharged from prison or sentenced to probation showed that they have a generally lower rate of re-arrest than other violent offenders but are substantially more likely than other violent offenders to be re-arrested for a new violent sex offense. Released rapists were found to be 10.5 times as likely as non-rapists to be re-arrested for rape.
Offenders who served time for sexual assault were 7.5 times as likely as those convicted of other crimes to be rearrested for a new sexual assault.

Source

Perhaps your friend could share their successful method with other
entities in order to lower the statistics.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2007 11:16 pm
It doesn't surprise me that any convicted felon is more likely to be rearrested for his/her crime of choice. The study you mention is a perfect example of the way in which society has pigeonholed sex offenders.

First they tell them they are subhuman and eternally damned to a life of perversion. Then they scarlet letter them on the outside so they have no chance of feeling 'normal'.

It is no wonder that those folks will do anything to hide their inclinations, avoiding treatment until it is too late.

BTW, I did mention my friends screened their patients carefully, did I not?
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  0  
Reply Tue 1 May, 2007 08:54 am
neologist, I am certain the victims themselves are scarred for life as
well. My sympathy for sex offenders is rather contained.

I'm sure your friends screen their patients very carefully, who wouldn't
when dealing with sex offenders. It would be interesting to know what
criteria they're using in selecting their patients.
0 Replies
 
Chai
 
  2  
Reply Tue 1 May, 2007 10:14 am
OK, I'm asking too.

CJ - where is your evidence that someone with those thoughts ALWAYS act of them?

Now, if you respond asking me for evidence to the contrary, I can remind you I had already asked you and remind you not to use that communication style to discredit yourself.

Later in your same post to dlowan, you said something about "I feel that a pedophile cannot help himself to keep it at fantasies only. "

Feelings is not evidence.
Data collected is.

Please show the data that the person with these fantasies ALWAYS ends up acting on them.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  0  
Reply Tue 1 May, 2007 10:58 am
You know dearest Chai, your post is quite stupid. First of all, you have
not written in this thread up until now, thus you have not asked me
anything previously. Second, you're interpretation of my posts are incorrect, if you like to use my phrases I'd appreciate a full quote, and
the quote in question was this

Quote:
When I said you cannot rehabilitate pedophiles it means that they cannot be cured. The desire or the intent to have sexual relations with children is always present. They always will have these desires and will act
on them.


They (pedophiles) always will have these desires (sexual fantasies etc.)
of children and will act on them (desires).

Sources were given above, but you're welcome to google your way into
the subject matter, and I'd be happy to discuss them with you, as
opposed to respond to your utter polemic of which I have no interest in.

In case you haven't noticed, since your last bashing towards me, I have
tried to ignore you, as I find you quite despicable.
0 Replies
 
Chai
 
  2  
Reply Tue 1 May, 2007 11:12 am
CJ,

yes, I have posted in this thread before....I am staying non commital and reading everyones post.

yes, this IS the first time I'm asking you this...however, I'm just restating what you said to dlowan that you had asked her to supply evidence, and she still hadn't, but was asking you the same.

So......I'm asking for YOUR evidence. Since you are the one stating that those that fantasize about children ALWAYS act on it, the onus is up to YOU to supply evidence to that fact.

Now, I am asking you a second time. Please supply the evidence that this ALWAYS occurs.

I am not asking about rehabilitation.

I am simply asking for evidence of what you have stated in multiple posts.

Where is your evidence that people who have fantasies about children ALWAYS act on them.

That is my question to you, separate from whatever discussion was going on about rehabilitation, which was not the origianl premise of this thread.

If you like, post any link you have that they ALWAYS act on this.

until you can do so, I would have to say you are wrong, since if anyone, anywhere anytime has ever NOT acted on their fantasies about children, what you say is not true.

Or, is this as you have also said, simply your feeling?

Feeling is not evidence.

Call me names, but that does not make this an invalid question.

You said something ALWAYS happens, prove it.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 May, 2007 11:51 am
A good book on this subject is Out of the Shadows by Philip Carnes.

He explains that pedophilia can very often be described and treated as an addiction. He would concur that those who have sexual desires towards children are prone to eventually act on them. Why? Because the addictive fantasies are concurrently reinforced by masturbation and the resultant link between stimulus (child) and orgasm (reward) is constantly being reinforced.

Treatment in part consists of linking negative images to the stimulus.

I've commented on this phenomenon in several threads about the dangers of masturbation, usually to the scorn of my fellow a2kers. But it should not simply be ignored.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  0  
Reply Tue 1 May, 2007 12:07 pm
neologist wrote:
A good book on this subject is Out of the Shadows by Philip Carnes.

He explains that pedophilia can very often be described and treated as an addiction. He would concur that those who have sexual desires towards children are prone to eventually act on them. Why? Because the addictive fantasies are concurrently reinforced by masturbation and the resultant link between stimulus (child) and orgasm (reward) is constantly being reinforced.


Yes, neologist, that is congruent with my readings in subject specific
documentations.
0 Replies
 
Chai
 
  2  
Reply Tue 1 May, 2007 02:00 pm
That's ok cj, I accept your apology for not realizing I had posted on this thread before.

And I understand you have no evidence to show that people who have fantasys about having sex with children ALWAYS and without exception end up having sex with children.

I realize it's important for you to call someone names so that you can get out of answering a direct question.

And that's not sarcasm at all.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  2  
Reply Tue 1 May, 2007 07:02 pm
CalamityJane wrote:
dlowan wrote:
Ok...I know you are plain wrong, factually speaking, in your claim:

"What I did say is that if one has sexual fantasies about children sooner or later will act upon it."
This is simply not true.
I am interested in where you get your absolutist belief about it and what back up you have?


dlowen, 2 pages ago I have asked you already for data to support
your claim
Quote:
If you have any data where pedophiles are successfully treated over a prolonged period of time, I would be very interested in seeing it.
which you have not replied to or
chose to ignore. Now you're telling me I am plain wrong and I should
supply data to you.

If this is the discussion style you're promoting, I don't mind, but you're
discrediting yourself here.


dlowen wrote:
Quote:
People can and do seek help for such fantasies......and I am personally aware of a number of people who have such fantasies and have not acted upon them.


No dispute here. Why shouldn't pedophiles seek help for such fantasies,
and if they have not acted upon them simply means over what period
of time, dlowen?


Quote:
That being said, such fantasies DO indeed frequently lead to abusive acts.


Right! As I feel that a pedophile cannot help himself to keep it at fantasies only.


Quote:
We do not have an agreed upon definition of paedophile, so I will have to come back later when I have a lot more time to respond to some of your previous posts.


Let the American Psychiatric Association define it for us:
The American Psychiatric Association in its main diagnostic manual, the DSM-IV TR, defines a pedophile as somebody who “over a period of six months, [has] recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges or behaviors involving sexually activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 or younger)”.

---

So, according to the APA, a person having sexual fantasies about children is considered a pedophile.


Quote:
For that reason I would be raising my index of concern more in relation to the person who is seeking out stuff on the net to fuel their fantasies, since this person is, in my view, further down the track towards acting abusively. (Though individual circumstances might change my view re individual people.)


No objection here.


Quote:
If they are looking at internet porn featuring kids, they have ALREADY acted abusively, in my view, since their action in paying for the stuff, or supporting a site with such material, supports actual abuse of actual kids, and they are co abusers.

Also, online, they are very likely to be viewing material justifying child abuse, and thus they are at risk of having their cognitive and emotional inhibitions against abusing kids further compromised, as well as finding networks to inculcate them into networks training and assisting them in increasingly abusive activities.


I agree!
-----

Where we disagree in, dlowan, is the technicalities. You are assuming that pedophiles are curable with the right treatment, whereas I claim that
pedophiles cannot help themselves with their orientation, similar to
homosexuality, where you cannot "cure" the person into heterosexuality.
Pedophilia is a lifelong sexual preference towards children and most
clinical and forensic organizations will agree to this.




You are the one making the extreme claim, CJ, and you have given NO data of ANY kind to support it.


The onus of support is on you.


I have not, btw asserted that habitual paedophiles can be rehabilitated.

I have simply questioned your absolutist claim that this can NEVER occur, and have asked you for evidence. My view was, and still is, that I do not know...but I doubt any such absolutist claim about people such as you have repeatedly made here.


You keep moving the debate all over the shop.


Let us be clear.



1. The claim you are making that I am disputing is that anyone who ever has a fantasy about a child will abuse a child sooner or later.






I am not debating you about whether or not habitual abusers can ever be stopped from doing so. I have no position on that, except to react with scepticism against your absolutist stance.

I am happy to look that up when I have time....I do not now, and it is not what I am debating about.

You also need to be clear, btw, about whether you speak of ceasing all impulse or ceasing abusive activity when you talk about "rehabilitation".


Though, come to think of it, your utterly unsubstantiated claim that impulse ALWAYS leads to action would, I suppose, make your confusion here understandable, since you claim them to be one and the same.


I think it would be daft to think that one can stop impulse (even with aversive therapies which are still used in the USA, but not in the UK or Oz)..."rehabilitation" would be about ensuring behavioural control.


As for examples that people can have the impulse and not act on it?


Sure:


1. Son of friend.

Called his dad late one night, when he was babysitting his partner's toddler. Said he wanted his dad to come over, because he had become aware that he was having impulses to touch the child's penis and was becoming aroused by them. Was horrified and appalled (had not previously been alone with child).

When his dad came, he left dad to care for child, he was so distressed that he went to POLICE, and reported himself as a paedophile because he had had the impulse!


Sought therapy the next day, with partner's invovement, and safety boundaries immediately set up...partner was shocked, too, and chose to end relationship.


Now, this man is in another reationship, but has chosen never to involve himself with a woman who has young children...his partners and friends are aware of the issue, and clear bounaries are in place re contact with kids.


He maintains contact with therapist.

Now.....


I guess one can never know what the future holds, but here is a person who had a fantasy about abusing a child and who acted responsibly and got help to support his decision never to act upon such thoughts.


One example zaps you, btw, since your claim is so absolutist....though you can, of course, choose to doubt my example...shrugs.....



2. Gay friend, abused as kid, left home at 12, on streets for years, supported himself by prostitution........


Made friends with gay guys in my circle, and found himself suddenly exposed to families with kids.


Sat down with a group of us, and said he was aware of sexual feelings towards the kids.....


Again, sought help, and there was a clear safety plan set up.

Parents in the group informed, with his consent, and people made decisions re socializing with him.

Safety plans set up, and friends and therapist monitor his actions.


I am interested, CJ...you seem amost proud that you know nobody who would have such feelings, or at least who would tell you about them.


Am I correct? If so why?


Why, especially, would you be pleased that people would not tell you of such feelings, if I am correct about this?

It comes back, for me, to utter puzzlement about feeling good about having no compassion for people with awful impulses.



Your stance I find not only puzzling, but actually almost dangerous, when it is, as I think it to be, shared by so many.


The thing is, IF people have abusive impulses, it is helpful if they can face them and own them. Especially if their eroticisation of children is linked to their own abuse, or traumatic witnessing of the abuse of others.


Such utterly negative stances as yours, when they are the norm, make it very hard for people to do this at a stage when they have not become part of a self affirming abusive culture, since the shame inculcated makes it very hard to acknowledge and deal rationally with the impulses.



If someone is dealing with such desires, do you think it better that they are in a circle of people aware of, and able to assist with, them? That they feel able to ask for help if they feel about to act, or that they deal with the impulses alone and in secrecy? That they are able to seek help with behavioural and cognitive structures to minimize and deal with temptation, or that they are struggling in secrecy?


The greatest friend of abuse, in my mind, is secrecy and shame.
0 Replies
 
shewolfnm
 
  0  
Reply Tue 1 May, 2007 07:21 pm
CJ said :
Quote:
They (pedophiles) always will have these desires (sexual fantasies etc.)
of children and will act on them (desires).



Chai said :
Quote:
So......I'm asking for YOUR evidence. Since you are the one stating that those that fantasize about children ALWAYS act on it, the onus is up to YOU to supply evidence to that fact.




So what I am hearing is this-

CJ says that people who have fantasies about children always act on them.
We all know that not all people who have sexual fantasies about children take them OUT physically on children..

But they DO MASTURBATE to them which means THEY ACT ON THEIR FANTASIES.

Private masturbation is not as serious as taking a child home and acting on these fantasies with the child.
But the very idea and the physical arousal based on sexual thoughts with children makes one a pedophile.

am I correct?


And I think what people ( chai / dlowen.. maybe..) are hearing is that CJ is saying that anyone who so much as thinks of a child in a sexual manner will ALWAYS act on it in a physical way ( having sex with a child) and what I personally think she is saying is that they will always 'act' on it.. and this is including , but not limited to, masturbation.
Even if the masturbation never goes any farther then their private bedroom all alone..
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Tue 1 May, 2007 07:24 pm
Great post, dlowan.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  2  
Reply Tue 1 May, 2007 07:32 pm
shewolfnm wrote:
CJ said :
Quote:
They (pedophiles) always will have these desires (sexual fantasies etc.)
of children and will act on them (desires).



Chai said :
Quote:
So......I'm asking for YOUR evidence. Since you are the one stating that those that fantasize about children ALWAYS act on it, the onus is up to YOU to supply evidence to that fact.




So what I am hearing is this-

CJ says that people who have fantasies about children always act on them.
We all know that not all people who have sexual fantasies about children take them OUT physically on children..

But they DO MASTURBATE to them which means THEY ACT ON THEIR FANTASIES.

Private masturbation is not as serious as taking a child home and acting on these fantasies with the child.
But the very idea and the physical arousal based on sexual thoughts with children makes one a pedophile.

am I correct?


And I think what people ( chai / dlowen.. maybe..) are hearing is that CJ is saying that anyone who so much as thinks of a child in a sexual manner will ALWAYS act on it in a physical way ( having sex with a child) and what I personally think she is saying is that they will always 'act' on it.. and this is including , but not limited to, masturbation.
Even if the masturbation never goes any farther then their private bedroom all alone..



Oh?


That is an interesting interpretation.


I hadn't got that at all from what CJ is saying.


I doubt me friend's son has masturbated to his fantasy....I think he more wanted to cut his dick off!


But I would certainly be less against CJ's case, if that is what it is.


BTW.....if I were treating anyone with such fantasies, I would see masturbating to them as concerning.

But I deal with the kiddies, who are more malleable, thank heavens.
0 Replies
 
shewolfnm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 May, 2007 07:39 pm
Well, let me rephrase my post then.

Maybe that isnt what CJ is saying.
But that is what I hear from her because that is what I think.

You know.. the whole.. imposing of ones personal thoughts?? Laughing


I see the term as " one always acts on these feelings" to include those who masturbate only, and never chase or assult a child.

But, I also read only 1/2 of the discussion between her and you Dl.

Now that I have had the time to read it all, I agree with what you said-

Quote:
I hadn't got that at all from what CJ is saying.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 May, 2007 07:47 pm
shewolfnm wrote:
Well, let me rephrase my post then.

Maybe that isnt what CJ is saying.
But that is what I hear from her because that is what I think.

You know.. the whole.. imposing of ones personal thoughts?? Laughing


I see the term as " one always acts on these feelings" to include those who masturbate only, and never chase or assult a child.

But, I also read only 1/2 of the discussion between her and you Dl.

Now that I have had the time to read it all, I agree with what you said-

Quote:
I hadn't got that at all from what CJ is saying.




Lol!

'Tis a difficult area, indeed.


Sigh.


The societal attitude depicted on this thread just drives me nuts....I am so sick of hearing kids say "I couldn't tell anyone this was happening, because it was rude, and I would have got in trouble and my mum wouldn't love me any more" and "I couldn't tell anyone I was thinking about doing that, because it was rude, and if I told, I would get in trouble and my mum wouldn't love me any more".


To me, it is two sides of the coin that are consequences of the same mindset.....we can't talk about sexual stuff, especially if it is bad sexual stuff, and if we do we are bad.


This is a message kids get that is part of what stops them from disclosing abuse, and also stops people getting help for abusive desires.


Hell, even if help early on only stops a paedophile for 1, 5, 10, 20 years, that's a hell of a lot of kids that aren't abused.
0 Replies
 
shewolfnm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 May, 2007 07:51 pm
exactly.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 May, 2007 08:02 pm
Great post, dlowan, very helpful, clear.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 May, 2007 08:12 pm
I only stopped posting here because dlowan was saying what I wanted to say but with more eloquence, and much more knowledge and experience of the subject matter. Kudos.
0 Replies
 
 

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