You are the one making the extreme claim, CJ, and you have given NO data of ANY kind to support it.
I have not, btw asserted that habitual paedophiles can be rehabilitated.
I have simply questioned your absolutist claim that this can NEVER occur, and have asked you for evidence. My view was, and still is, that I do not know...but I doubt any such absolutist claim about people such as you have repeatedly made here.
1. The claim you are making that I am disputing is that anyone who ever has a fantasy about a child will abuse a child sooner or later.
Though, come to think of it, your utterly unsubstantiated claim that impulse ALWAYS leads to action would, I suppose, make your confusion here understandable, since you claim them to be one and the same.
I guess one can never know what the future holds, but here is a person who had a fantasy about abusing a child and who acted responsibly and got help to support his decision never to act upon such thoughts.
One example zaps you, btw, since your claim is so absolutist....though you can, of course, choose to doubt my example...shrugs.....
I am interested, CJ...you seem amost proud that you know nobody who would have such feelings, or at least who would tell you about them.
Why, especially, would you be pleased that people would not tell you of such feelings, if I am correct about this?
It comes back, for me, to utter puzzlement about feeling good about having no compassion for people with awful impulses.
Your stance I find not only puzzling, but actually almost dangerous, when it is, as I think it to be, shared by so many.
If someone is dealing with such desires, do you think it better that they are in a circle of people aware of, and able to assist with, them? That they feel able to ask for help if they feel about to act, or that they deal with the impulses alone and in secrecy? That they are able to seek help with behavioural and cognitive structures to minimize and deal with temptation, or that they are struggling in secrecy?
The greatest friend of abuse, in my mind, is secrecy and shame.
. . .
As for examples that people can have the impulse and not act on it?
Sure:
1. Son of friend.
Called his dad late one night, when he was babysitting his partner's toddler. Said he wanted his dad to come over, because he had become aware that he was having impulses to touch the child's penis and was becoming aroused by them. Was horrified and appalled (had not previously been alone with child).
When his dad came, he left dad to care for child, he was so distressed that he went to POLICE, and reported himself as a paedophile because he had had the impulse!
Sought therapy the next day, with partner's invovement, and safety boundaries immediately set up...partner was shocked, too, and chose to end relationship.
Now, this man is in another reationship, but has chosen never to involve himself with a woman who has young children...his partners and friends are aware of the issue, and clear bounaries are in place re contact with kids.
He maintains contact with therapist.
Now.....
I guess one can never know what the future holds, but here is a person who had a fantasy about abusing a child and who acted responsibly and got help to support his decision never to act upon such thoughts.
One example zaps you, btw, since your claim is so absolutist....though you can, of course, choose to doubt my example...shrugs.....
2. Gay friend, abused as kid, left home at 12, on streets for years, supported himself by prostitution........
Made friends with gay guys in my circle, and found himself suddenly exposed to families with kids.
Sat down with a group of us, and said he was aware of sexual feelings towards the kids.....
Again, sought help, and there was a clear safety plan set up.
Parents in the group informed, with his consent, and people made decisions re socializing with him.
Safety plans set up, and friends and therapist monitor his actions.
I am interested, CJ...you seem amost proud that you know nobody who would have such feelings, or at least who would tell you about them.
Am I correct? If so why?
Why, especially, would you be pleased that people would not tell you of such feelings, if I am correct about this?
It comes back, for me, to utter puzzlement about feeling good about having no compassion for people with awful impulses.
Your stance I find not only puzzling, but actually almost dangerous, when it is, as I think it to be, shared by so many.
The thing is, IF people have abusive impulses, it is helpful if they can face them and own them. Especially if their eroticisation of children is linked to their own abuse, or traumatic witnessing of the abuse of others.
Such utterly negative stances as yours, when they are the norm, make it very hard for people to do this at a stage when they have not become part of a self affirming abusive culture, since the shame inculcated makes it very hard to acknowledge and deal rationally with the impulses.
If someone is dealing with such desires, do you think it better that they are in a circle of people aware of, and able to assist with, them? That they feel able to ask for help if they feel about to act, or that they deal with the impulses alone and in secrecy? That they are able to seek help with behavioural and cognitive structures to minimize and deal with temptation, or that they are struggling in secrecy?
The greatest friend of abuse, in my mind, is secrecy and shame.
dlowan wrote:You are the one making the extreme claim, CJ, and you have given NO data of ANY kind to support it.
My claim is certainly not extreme, you being a child therapist for abused children should know that.
Quote:I have not, btw asserted that habitual paedophiles can be rehabilitated.
I have simply questioned your absolutist claim that this can NEVER occur, and have asked you for evidence. My view was, and still is, that I do not know...but I doubt any such absolutist claim about people such as you have repeatedly made here.
Right, my claim is supported solely by books and documentation. I don't know any pedophiles or sex offenders personally.
Quote:1. The claim you are making that I am disputing is that anyone who ever has a fantasy about a child will abuse a child sooner or later.
No one took your right away not to dispute it. Again, statistics in child abuse are extremely high, no point in denying this.
Quote:Though, come to think of it, your utterly unsubstantiated claim that impulse ALWAYS leads to action would, I suppose, make your confusion here understandable, since you claim them to be one and the same.
Right. There is no impulse alone, one is either a pedophile or is not,
and it will lead to actions whatever they might be. Pedophiles cannot
control their inclination. They love children and this will not change
with behavioral modifications.
Quote:I guess one can never know what the future holds, but here is a person who had a fantasy about abusing a child and who acted responsibly and got help to support his decision never to act upon such thoughts.
One example zaps you, btw, since your claim is so absolutist....though you can, of course, choose to doubt my example...shrugs.....
Why should I doubt your example? Yet, since you and I don't know what
the future holds for this young man, you could be very wrong, and the
next time he could be in less control of his sexual urges.
Quote:I am interested, CJ...you seem amost proud that you know nobody who would have such feelings, or at least who would tell you about them.
Oy, dlowan, where does this come from? Statements like these tell a lot more about you than myself.
Quote:Why, especially, would you be pleased that people would not tell you of such feelings, if I am correct about this?
Again, pure emotional interpretation from your side. Nothing pleases
me concerning this subject matter either pro or con, nor would I be proud of either knowing or not knowing a pedophile. Nothing to this extend was even remotely mentioned by me. You are almost bordering on character assassination.
Quote:It comes back, for me, to utter puzzlement about feeling good about having no compassion for people with awful impulses.
Even repeating such nonsense three times, does not make it right.
Quote:Your stance I find not only puzzling, but actually almost dangerous, when it is, as I think it to be, shared by so many.
Frankly, I am even more puzzled about your accusations of me being
dangerous. You claim to be the therapist. You certainly have violated
just about every stance there is.
Quote:If someone is dealing with such desires, do you think it better that they are in a circle of people aware of, and able to assist with, them? That they feel able to ask for help if they feel about to act, or that they deal with the impulses alone and in secrecy? That they are able to seek help with behavioural and cognitive structures to minimize and deal with temptation, or that they are struggling in secrecy?
Sorry, I missed that part, where I insisted they deal with their "addiction"
alone and in secrecy, or are you again speculating what must be my
opinion? No one would dispute that pedophiles need help and assistance,
and you will not find a statement of mine that is contradictory.
Quote:The greatest friend of abuse, in my mind, is secrecy and shame.
I agree!
Yep, that Deb is a grade A sweetheart. I can ill imagine where she finds room in her heart for all these victims.
I can not. CJ makes more sense to me. I don't think she needs to prove her assertion that he who thinks about kids will eventually act on said thoughts. Not at all.
I am a gambler by nature. I love poker. Obviously; every card game has an element of the "luck of the draw" so you can almost never be certain your decision will prove profitable. So instead of relying on what you know for sure; you learn the numbers. At first glance; like any good player, I knows how many starting hands are better than the one I'm holding, and what the odds are of someone holding one. Seconds after the first community cards are dealt; I know which hands are potentially better than mine, what the odds are someone's holding one, and weigh the potential rewards of the money in the pot, against my odds of winning it. The odds in poker are relatively easy to figure, once you learn how. I also know people. I've spent most of my life in sales... which is essentially separating buyers from liars, so I generally have a pretty good read on whether or not someone's play is reflective of what's actually in their hand. I am a novice poker player, but I love the game, because I love to gamble for money.
I don't, however, see any reason to gamble with children's lives. It matters little to me what the odds are of a sexual offender's recidivism. Nor do I much care what painful experiences led said offender to become one. My compassion can't match Deb's, because it is reserved for the victims of violent crime, not the perpetrators of same. I believe without reservation; that errors should be made on the side of protecting innocent children over gambling on the rehabilitation of sick adults.
I've known a couple men who were molested as kids, and more women than a rational mind wants to believe. Too often, these scars are deeper than any physical scars we get from our own reckless behavior as kids.
I understand and almost envy the idealism in people as compassionate as Deb, but I could never match it. The kids trump the sickos in the emotional micro and their protection still trumps the sickos in the logical macro.
I think Dennis Miller offered appropriate advice for the potential sickos: "If you're having inappropriate thoughts about children and you think you're capable of following through on them, don't tell anyone. Just put a gun to your head and take one for the team."
dlowan wrote:These examples are of very brave folks. The powers of our current day work overtime to discourage anyone from confessing such inclinations.. . .
As for examples that people can have the impulse and not act on it?
Sure:
1. Son of friend.
Called his dad late one night, when he was babysitting his partner's toddler. Said he wanted his dad to come over, because he had become aware that he was having impulses to touch the child's penis and was becoming aroused by them. Was horrified and appalled (had not previously been alone with child).
When his dad came, he left dad to care for child, he was so distressed that he went to POLICE, and reported himself as a paedophile because he had had the impulse!
Sought therapy the next day, with partner's invovement, and safety boundaries immediately set up...partner was shocked, too, and chose to end relationship.
Now, this man is in another reationship, but has chosen never to involve himself with a woman who has young children...his partners and friends are aware of the issue, and clear bounaries are in place re contact with kids.
He maintains contact with therapist.
Now.....
I guess one can never know what the future holds, but here is a person who had a fantasy about abusing a child and who acted responsibly and got help to support his decision never to act upon such thoughts.
One example zaps you, btw, since your claim is so absolutist....though you can, of course, choose to doubt my example...shrugs.....
2. Gay friend, abused as kid, left home at 12, on streets for years, supported himself by prostitution........
Made friends with gay guys in my circle, and found himself suddenly exposed to families with kids.
Sat down with a group of us, and said he was aware of sexual feelings towards the kids.....
Again, sought help, and there was a clear safety plan set up.
Parents in the group informed, with his consent, and people made decisions re socializing with him.
Safety plans set up, and friends and therapist monitor his actions.
I am interested, CJ...you seem amost proud that you know nobody who would have such feelings, or at least who would tell you about them.
Am I correct? If so why?
Why, especially, would you be pleased that people would not tell you of such feelings, if I am correct about this?
It comes back, for me, to utter puzzlement about feeling good about having no compassion for people with awful impulses.
Your stance I find not only puzzling, but actually almost dangerous, when it is, as I think it to be, shared by so many.
The thing is, IF people have abusive impulses, it is helpful if they can face them and own them. Especially if their eroticisation of children is linked to their own abuse, or traumatic witnessing of the abuse of others.
Such utterly negative stances as yours, when they are the norm, make it very hard for people to do this at a stage when they have not become part of a self affirming abusive culture, since the shame inculcated makes it very hard to acknowledge and deal rationally with the impulses.
If someone is dealing with such desires, do you think it better that they are in a circle of people aware of, and able to assist with, them? That they feel able to ask for help if they feel about to act, or that they deal with the impulses alone and in secrecy? That they are able to seek help with behavioural and cognitive structures to minimize and deal with temptation, or that they are struggling in secrecy?
The greatest friend of abuse, in my mind, is secrecy and shame.
I think it is important to draw the line between those who ruminate on their impulses and those who would seek help. In the possibility that any who are now reading this thread might be wondering about themselves, I would urge you to seek help. And if you have already committed a criminal act, I would suggest you start by approaching a lawyer who could direct you in selecting a therapist. It might be best to consult the lawyer first, in any case.
I can recall several incidences in my life where I felt I was becoming close enough to someone, as in becoming friends, where I felt I wanted to share something of a personal nature. In some of these times, shortly before (sometimes within the same conversation) I suddenly get this message verbally from the person that, essentially "I could NEVER be friendly with someone who (whatever the behavior/feelings I was about to express was)"
Obviously, I didn't bring them into confidence, in some situations they remained friends, only they never knew that they were aquainted with, and actually LIKED, one of "those" people..
Who get to decide who should take the bullet? Or who should be locked up forever?
Does anyone REALLY think a person described in other posts should literally pick up a gun and blow their brains out?
Who get to decide who should take the bullet? Or who should be locked up forever?
I think the whole attitude of "They are all just sick, they all deserve death" is just lazy redneck thinking. It's easy.
I would argue that the more difficult road of tolerance and understanding will, in fact, result in less children being abused.
capable of following through on them
Bill, if your best friend that you've known since you were 6 blew his brains out, or your brother, sister, aunt, and it comes out that they did so because they had sexual thoughts about children, that you never knew about (for obvious reasons) would you say "well that's a good thing. There was nothing else to do about it.
neo is correct, if we all should kill ourselves for our thoughts, mankind would have been extinct long ago.
I think the whole attitude of "They are all just sick, they all deserve death" is just lazy redneck thinking. It's easy.
I would argue that the more difficult road of tolerance and understanding will, in fact, result in less children being abused.
Mame,
No, or I wouldn't have to argue it, would I?
It's quite possible that instant death for any peadophilic thought would reduce the number of children abused. Hope you enjoy that world.
Perhaps you have a more practical solution to offer?
