1
   

Anonymous law making

 
 
Reply Wed 25 Apr, 2007 11:48 am
Apologies if this topic was already started -- I'm not as active here as I have been in the past.

Hidden under the rubble of the Gonzalez US Attorneys flap was a report that a provision was added to the Patriot Act which allowed the AG to appoint US Attorneys for replacement rather than have them confirmed by Congress. That has since been (or is in the process of being) repealed, but nobody would take responsibility for adding it to the bill. Quite by coincidence, I recently discovered another one of these authorless provisions in last year's defence authorization act.

Quote:
The nation's governors and National Guard leaders oppose a provision inserted into the fiscal 2007 defense authorization bill last year redefining when the president can take command of the National Guard during domestic emergencies. No member of the House or Senate is claiming responsibility for the provision, which amends the Insurrection Act of 1807.

http://public.cq.com/docs/hs/hsnews110-000002496845.html

Who's inserting these provisions and how many more are there out there that we don't know about? This bill was passed last year, and I pretend to be relatively well-informed, yet I never heard about this provision. And it's a pretty big deal.
  • Topic Stats
  • Top Replies
  • Link to this Topic
Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 790 • Replies: 12
No top replies

 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Apr, 2007 11:57 am
I'm not sure if you'd be able to track that down if you went through all the original bill's proposed amendments on the Thomas Locator or not. I suppose it would depend on how it got inserted. Some amendments are brought up directly on the floor and those would be in Thomas, but others get inserted while the bill is making it way through any one of various committies and those probably wouldn't be.

Without going to DC and looking at all the relevant paperwork you may never be able to find out who the actual person that inserted it was. My guess is that there are thousands of these every year. They are also referred to as "riders".
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Apr, 2007 12:29 pm
Oh. I thought this would be about all the rules and regulations passed by various agencies, like IRS, DOT, OSHA, et.al. I doubt you'd ever track down any of those.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Apr, 2007 12:55 pm
That sounds interesting too, roger.

So it sounds like you're saying this is a normal occurrence, fishin. It just seems to me that amending the Insurrection Act is a fairly significant change that should be debated, or at the very least authored by someone willing to defend it.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Apr, 2007 01:17 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
So it sounds like you're saying this is a normal occurrence, fishin. It just seems to me that amending the Insurrection Act is a fairly significant change that should be debated, or at the very least authored by someone willing to defend it.


Amending the Insurrection Act isn't "usual" but tacking on riders (aka "markups") is a daily thing in Congress. If you look at the legislative history of pretty much any bill you'll find that there are two or three proposed amendments that have nothing to do with the primary purpose of the bill itself.

If a congressman wants a new bridge in their district they tack it onto an education bill, etc... The Defense Appropriation Bill is always a favorite target for riders because the thing is so huge that very few people actually read it. And since our system is setup where a bill is passed (or not) in it's entirety, if the rider is thrown in and no one catches it to object, it passes with the bill.

The rider issue has been used as one of the reasons to support a line item veto. If the Line Item Veto were Constitutional, the President could line out the riders they disagree with (if they caught them!).

The whole issue was one of several that the Democrats claimed they were going to attempt to tackle after they regained control of Congress last election. So far it doesn't seem to be going anywhere but... ya never know!
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Apr, 2007 01:19 pm
Are riders always anonymous, though? In the bridge example, doesn't the bridge guy want credit for that?

(I know nothing about any of this, just reading with interest.)
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Apr, 2007 01:27 pm
sozobe wrote:
Are riders always anonymous, though? In the bridge example, doesn't the bridge guy want credit for that?

(I know nothing about any of this, just reading with interest.)


Right! They aren't always anonymous.

It depends on what the item is and what the press coverage of it is. What's that "bridge to nowhere" up in Alaska that got tacked onto some bill (last year? year before?). I'm sure the person that got it tacked on thought it was a great idea to advertise it in their district. At least until it became known nationally and was seen as massive waste.

If they want credit they'll usually do the add-on in a public forum - on the floor or in a recorded committee hearing. If they don't want it known they have some staffer slip it into the bill while it is being typed up.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Apr, 2007 01:27 pm
I knew what you meant, fishin. And I knew that riders are how pork gets into spending bills. Somehow in my mind, though, I thought it was limited to money. I didn't know you could amend existing laws with a rider. It's all new to me.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Apr, 2007 01:36 pm
Actually, many of these "anonymous" provisions are inserted during conference committees, where differing senate and house versions of a bill are reconciled. The conference committees are usually not open to the public and no records are kept of their private deliberations. In essence, two bills go into the black box of the conference committee and one bill magically emerges from it. It is during that magical period that these mysterious provisions are added. That's not supposed to happen (because that would mean that something the senate and house never voted on in the original bills would be in the final version of the bill), but it nevertheless happened with alarming frequency during the last six years.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Apr, 2007 01:42 pm
So, in that case joe, could someone look at the house bill that passed and the senate bill that passed, and if the provision wasn't in either of those, determine that it was inserted during the reconciliation?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Apr, 2007 01:48 pm
This is quite common, and it is also usually understood that if a Representative's home district is suddenly the beneficiary of Federal largesse, that he or she is responsible, even without his or her name appearing on the "rider." In fact, the most common form of "rider" is a grant of citizenship to someone from the district of the member who adds the rider, and then they definitely don't want their name on it.

As this story from Common Dreams (not an unbiased source) indicates, riders are viewed suspiciously by many groups.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Apr, 2007 02:42 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
So, in that case joe, could someone look at the house bill that passed and the senate bill that passed, and if the provision wasn't in either of those, determine that it was inserted during the reconciliation?

Yep, that would be the culprit.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Apr, 2007 03:23 pm
Setanta wrote:
In fact, the most common form of "rider" is a grant of citizenship to someone from the district of the member who adds the rider, and then they definitely don't want their name on it.


That's an interesting litle tidbit! Who would have thought that? Heh, I think pretty much everybody assumes that riders are just pork projects.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
  1. Forums
  2. » Anonymous law making
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 05/03/2024 at 11:04:44