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Supreme Court Bans Partial Birth

 
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Apr, 2007 11:35 am
Advocate wrote:
From my readings, in the vast majority of cases, late-term abortions occur because the fetus has terrible defects. In many cases, should the fetus not be aborted, the defects will cause an early death for the child, or terrible and painful lifespan. I don't know why more people don't mention this.


Perhaps because is it largely unimportant in the context of the law in question?

If there are 3 or 6 or 12 ways to do something and then 1 is removed from the list of possibilities, does that mean that the task can no longer be accomplished?

The law which was upheld by this ruling doesn't ban late-term abortions. It bans one of several procedures for performing them.
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Apr, 2007 11:45 am
Contrary to vows to eschew judicial activism, the majority of the court is ignoring a decades-old overriding principle that the law may not override the health and life of the pregnant woman. Kennedy effectively said that congress may give priority to the value of the fetus.

For the first time, there is a Catholic majority on the court. We can see this in their terminology and decisions. We should worry about the separation of church and state.
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Apr, 2007 11:51 am
Fishin, shouldn't the doctor be the person to decide what is the best procedure? Or, should Doctor Kennedy be the person to decide?

Moreover, as discussed, this is definitely an opening to further restrictions on abortions. I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise.
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slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Apr, 2007 11:53 am
Advocate wrote:
From my readings, in the vast majority of cases, late-term abortions occur because the fetus has terrible defects. In many cases, should the fetus not be aborted, the defects will cause an early death for the child, or terrible and painful lifespan. I don't know why more people don't mention this.


Terrible defects?! The fetus is NOT a piece of machinery that should be discarded because of defects. Quadraplegics have "terrible defects" as well...others have painful lives...yet we do not use that as justification to rid ourselves of them.

Also I believe the argument has long been "the health of the mother" to justify late-term abortions, not the health of the fetus. Using that argument would open one up to murdering the newly born but severely handicapped children, which is probably why the argument is not widely used by the abortion crowd.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Apr, 2007 11:57 am
If concern for the mother is the sticking point, consider: instead of manipulating the infant so that its entire body except the head comes out first, before you kill it; pull the whole damn thing out in whichever way it would naturally come out... and then kill it. This would be safer for the mother, no? (I wonder how many people don't even know what this procedure entails.)

I again encourage people to watch the video link I posted. It's ABC News, about a birth, not an abortion, not gross, and quite fascinating.
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Apr, 2007 12:23 pm
Advocate wrote:
Fishin, shouldn't the doctor be the person to decide what is the best procedure? Or, should Doctor Kennedy be the person to decide?


The procedures doctors are allowed to use or prevented from using are ALL controlled by one government entity or another. A doctor isn't given the option of deciding to perform an abortion via blunt force trama to the woman's abdomen or electric shock to the fetus either - even if the individual doctor decides that one of those would be the "best procedure" in a given case.

Some of the limitations are created and enforced by the doctors themselves through the AMA which also acts as a government oversight organization. Others come from the FDA and some come from the Congress.
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Apr, 2007 12:40 pm
Advocate wrote:
Contrary to vows to eschew judicial activism, the majority of the court is ignoring a decades-old overriding principle that the law may not override the health and life of the pregnant woman. Kennedy effectively said that congress may give priority to the value of the fetus.


That's a pro-choice BS spin on what Kennedy said in the decision. First of all, the law in question exempts issues where the life of the mother is a concern so that portion of your statement is flat out wrong. That was quickly dismissed as an issue in the ruling since the law is already in compliance with USSC precedent on that point.

Secondly, what Kennedy said on the health issue was that in situations where the opinion of the professional and scientific community is evenly split on an issue, the benefit of doubt goes toward the decision of the Legislature - not the courts. It isn't a carte blanche for the Legislature. They can't just decide to give priority to the fetus on a whim.

Where is the judicial activism there? What precedent is being overturned? In both Roe and Casey, the previous courts recognized that the fetus starts attaining rights once past the point of viability. Is it your position that the Legislature has no authority to define those rights?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2007 06:48 am
Thomas wrote:
I agree with Brandon's point. I also invite Blatham to consider his respect for precedent when the shoe is on the other foot. Blatham, would precedent persuade you to join the "authoriatarian" votes in the Guantanamo cases? After all, they are grounded in time-honored World War II precedents, all of them longer-standing than Roe v. Wade. (Remember that the decisions upholding the detention of 100,000 innocent Japanese-Americans remain good law to this day -- not that contemporary justices are citing them as precedents to uphold.) I am certain that if you sat on the US Supreme Court, you would overrule these decisions without hesitation.

I would even agree with you if you did: There are cases when fundamental constitutional principles should trump precedent. But what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. A judge would also be justified in ignoring precedent if he concluded that Roe and Casey violated state rights, or that embryos have human rights that these precedents gave too short shrift. Precedent is an overestimated argument in fundamental-rights cases.


You and fishin always catch me up on insufficient reading. That's a time choice I have to make, but your complaints are valid nonetheless.

fishin...I did get that the precedent point from Ginsburg relates to the health issue.

thomas... I don't agree with Brandon's point because I don't hold precedent to be some absolute standard. Decisions can be (and ought to be) revisited in light of new information and new cultural standards. She and I obviously consider this decision to be retrograde...a return in the direction of authoritarian mandates by the state, particularly of the patronizing sort (flightly females) not to mention a serious nod to moral systems based on Christian theological dogmas.

I value precedent just about exactly as much as Scalia. I think I value personal liberty in citizens' life-choices far more than does he. I attribute this difference to his Catholicism (and, perhaps, to a species of Platonic elitism). That may be a mis-identification, but it would surprise me if it was.

I took Ginsburg to be implying that this decision is a consequence of the new configuration of the court, a configuration which has been successfully strategized towards by the social conservative movement (and the Federalist Society is clearly a functioning arm of that movement). I also took her to be suggesting (certainly hoping) that this retrograde direction will likely be temporary and subsumed by an inexorable social demand for personal liberty and choice in personal matters. Though denied or unanswered by Alito and Roberts, do you have even the slightest doubt yourself that how both gentelmen would come down on this case (and others related) was not explicitly or implicitly clarified between them and the administration before their names were advanced?

All that being said, I'm not unsympathetic to the moral arguments which hold that a fetus which has reached the point of viability poses a moral dilemma different from its earlier state.
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2007 08:20 am
fishin wrote:
Advocate wrote:
From my readings, in the vast majority of cases, late-term abortions occur because the fetus has terrible defects. In many cases, should the fetus not be aborted, the defects will cause an early death for the child, or terrible and painful lifespan. I don't know why more people don't mention this.


Perhaps because is it largely unimportant in the context of the law in question?

If there are 3 or 6 or 12 ways to do something and then 1 is removed from the list of possibilities, does that mean that the task can no longer be accomplished?

The law which was upheld by this ruling doesn't ban late-term abortions. It bans one of several procedures for performing them.



It could be that the banned procedure is the only one possible in a very late-term abortion. Thus, the woman is now condemned to give birth, and care for, a highly-defective child who might live only a short time in great pain.

Would you be content to have this result in your family?
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2007 08:28 am
Advocate wrote:
It could be that the banned procedure is the only one possible in a very late-term abortion. Thus, the woman is now condemned to give birth, and care for, a highly-defective child who might live only a short time in great pain.

Would you be content to have this result in your family?


Except for the fact that the majority of testimony (by both sides on the issue) at both the Congressional hearings and the court briefings stated that there was NEVER any situation where that would be true where the mother's life wasn't also at risk - a provision which is allowed for in the law which was upheld by the ruling.

Even the pro-choice professionals admitted that the other alternatives available could be used. The choice not to use them was one of convience, not necessity.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2007 08:47 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
If concern for the mother is the sticking point, consider: instead of manipulating the infant so that its entire body except the head comes out first, before you kill it; pull the whole damn thing out in whichever way it would naturally come out... and then kill it. This would be safer for the mother, no?

Abortion is a pretty nasty procedure, regardless of what procedure is chosen, and I see little difference in destroying the fetus in utero and destroying it ex utero. That's a pretty slim distinction on which to hang a constitutional right, but the majority in Gonzalez v. Carhart (.pdf) seems to think that it is a valid distinction. As Justice Kennedy helpfully points out:
    The Act excludes most D&Es in which the fetus is removed in pieces, not intact. If the doctor intends to remove the fetus in parts from the outset, the doctor will not have the requisite intent to incur criminal liability.
Although it's true that the act sufficiently informs the doctor as to which procedures are permissible and which are not, there is precious little attention paid to explaining why one is permissible and the other isn't.

The reason might just be that Justice Kennedy and the rest of the majority thinks that intact D&E (or "partial birth abortion") is just really, really icky. As Kennedy states:
    No one would dispute that, for many, D&E is a procedure itself laden with the power to devalue human life. Congress could nonetheless conclude that the type of abortion proscribed by the Act requires specific regulation because it implicates additional ethical and moral concerns that justify a special prohibition. Congress determined that the abortion methods it proscribed had a "disturbing similarity to the killing of a newborn infant," ... and thus it was concerned with "draw[ing] a bright line that clearly distinguishes abortion and infanticide."
So congress and Kennedy are of one opinion here: intact D&E looks too much like a regular vaginal delivery, and that just totally freaks us out.

Furthermore, Kennedy argues that not only is intact D&E icky, but that, if women gave it any thought at all, they would think it was icky too. He notes:
    In a decision so fraught with emotional consequence some doctors may prefer not to disclose precise details of the means that will be used, confining themselves to the required statement of risks the procedure entails.... It is, however, precisely this lack of information concerning the way in which the fetus will be killed that is of legitimate concern to the State.... The State has an interest in ensuring so grave a choice is well informed. It is self-evident that a mother who comes to regret her choice to abort must struggle with grief more anguished and sorrow more profound when she learns, only after the event, what she once did not know: that she allowed a doctor to pierce the skull and vacuum the fast-developing brain of her unborn child, a child assuming the human form.
Ooooh, gross! As Slate's Dahlia Lithwick persuasively argues, however, the solution to the problem of uninformed women is not to ban the procedure but to mandate that the women be informed.

Kennedy attempts to distinguish Gonzalez from the previous decision in Stenberg, which held that a similar statute was unconstitutional, on the grounds that congress has now discovered that there is a medical consensus that intact D&E is never medically necessary. But, as even Kennedy is forced to acknowledge, there is no such consensus in the medical community. The "consensus" is a myth, invented by congress solely for the purpose of evading the holding in Stenberg -- and it succeeded. It is on the basis of this "consensus" that Kennedy concludes that the act doesn't pose an unconstitutional burden on the right of women seeking an abortion. After all, Kennedy would reason, if there's no medical necessity for the procedure, there is no undue burden on women by banning the procedure.

That's a rather startling conclusion, and one that has grave consequences not only for the right guaranteed by Roe but potentially for any right. Gonzalez seems to suggest that, as long as congress can manufacture a reasonable excuse for saying that something is unnecessary to the exercise of a constitutional right, then it is constitutionally permissible to ban that thing without impairing the right. One could argue, then, with equal logic that since newspapers are not necessary to the exercise of free speech, then there's no constitutional barrier to banning newspapers. That should be troubling to anyone, regardless of what side of the abortion issue one stands.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2007 01:09 pm
So your complaint is sloppy drafting of the decision? Or faulty reasoning for it? Or both? I won't spend hours reading about this stuff, because like you said; it's icky. But based on what I've already read and what's been written here; it almost seems like the bill doesn't go quite as far as it should.
    If it's true that Roe was intended to hold that
  1. A woman has the right to choose up until the baby becomes viable,
  2. Thereafter the baby has a right to not be killed because it is viable
Then wouldn't every elective abortion in the late-term category no longer be protected by Roe in the first place? The preemie story I linked earlier is a healthy baby girl born at 21 weeks (10 Ounces Shocked), and at the time the video news story was released; she was on her way home. Unless there is a threat to the woman's health; how then do you ignore the viable baby's rights as set forth in Roe?
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2007 01:18 pm
First, a fetus is not a baby. Second, assume that the fetus is horribly deformed, and is probably doomed to a relatively short and painful life. In this case, wouldn't you favor the right to a late-term abortion? I can't imagine a pregnant woman preferring the alternative.
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2007 01:56 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
Gonzalez seems to suggest that, as long as congress can manufacture a reasonable excuse for saying that something is unnecessary to the exercise of a constitutional right, then it is constitutionally permissible to ban that thing without impairing the right. One could argue, then, with equal logic that since newspapers are not necessary to the exercise of free speech, then there's no constitutional barrier to banning newspapers. That should be troubling to anyone, regardless of what side of the abortion issue one stands.


How is this new?? How long have we had the "You can't yell fire in a crowded theater" limitation of the 1st Amendment? I'm fairly confident that there are limitations on every right set forth in the Constitution. There are tests for determining how far though limitations can go in each and every case though... That whole "compelling state interest" thing.
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woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2007 01:59 pm
Advocate wrote:
First, a fetus is not a baby. Second, assume that the fetus is horribly deformed, and is probably doomed to a relatively short and painful life. In this case, wouldn't you favor the right to a late-term abortion? I can't imagine a pregnant woman preferring the alternative.


STOP THE MADNESS!!!!!

The percentage of Partial Birth to other abortions is fractional. I can not find any stats that say every or most partial birth abortions were for the benefit of the mother or as a result of a "horribly deformed fetus".

There is plenty of time for women to choose to kill their "fetus" before they get to this point.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2007 02:02 pm
Advocate wrote:
First, a fetus is not a baby.
So it is this terminology difference that makes you comfortable with viable healthy humans having scissors jammed in the back of their heads in the very last minute before they are completely delivered?

Advocate wrote:
Second, assume that the fetus is horribly deformed, and is probably doomed to a relatively short and painful life. In this case, wouldn't you favor the right to a late-term abortion? I can't imagine a pregnant woman preferring the alternative.
Rolling Eyes Why should I assume that? I've read that even the doctors who perform these procedures admit the majority are purely elective, NOT what you describe. Hence; I used the word elective.

Tell me; do you also favor infanticide for Down Syndrome babies and other babies born into other hardships? Your Fetus/baby distinction is a simple choice of words. Would you be comfortable with this procedure used instead of normal birth as a last minute decision? ...killing the child the EXACT same way... providing the doctor killed it before it's head popped out (last). Would that be okay too?

Now tell men what's the difference? On the second page I linked a story about a healthy preemie at 21 weeks (Amelia). Should there be an 18 week grace period where it's still okay to kill her if her parents decide they don't want her?
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2007 02:04 pm
You are wrong. Also, the fire thing is a bad example. The courts have said that this is action, and not speech.

The rights in the B of R are absolute. For instance, the press is free to publish anything; however, it may have a price to pay when there is, say, libel.
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2007 02:06 pm
Advocate wrote:
First, a fetus is not a baby. Second, assume that the fetus is horribly deformed, and is probably doomed to a relatively short and painful life. In this case, wouldn't you favor the right to a late-term abortion? I can't imagine a pregnant woman preferring the alternative.


And again, a moot point since this ruling doesn't eliminate the right to all late term abortions. Your continued attempts to infer that no late term abortions will be allowed is just nonsense. It's like claiming that you can't get to the store because your bicycle chain broke. You may want to take your bicycle but the fact remains that cars, taxis, buses and walking are all other options still available.
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2007 02:17 pm
Advocate wrote:
You are wrong. Also, the fire thing is a bad example. The courts have said that this is action, and not speech.


Really? Maybe you should read Schenck v. United States before posting again. That is where Justice Holmes stated "The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic." You might also be interested in the later Brandenburg v. Ohio case.

Quote:
The rights in the B of R are absolute. For instance, the press is free to publish anything; however, it may have a price to pay when there is, say, libel.


Absolute rubish. There are limitations on every right.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2007 02:29 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
So your complaint is sloppy drafting of the decision? Or faulty reasoning for it? Or both?

It strikes me as a very poorly reasoned opinion.

OCCOM BILL wrote:
I won't spend hours reading about this stuff, because like you said; it's icky. But based on what I've already read and what's been written here; it almost seems like the bill doesn't go quite as far as it should.
    If it's true that Roe was intended to hold that
  1. A woman has the right to choose up until the baby becomes viable,
  2. Thereafter the baby has a right to not be killed because it is viable
Then wouldn't every elective abortion in the late-term category no longer be protected by Roe in the first place? The preemie story I linked earlier is a healthy baby girl born at 21 weeks (10 Ounces Shocked), and at the time the video news story was released; she was on her way home. Unless there is a threat to the woman's health; how then do you ignore the viable baby's rights as set forth in Roe?

First of all, "viability," as defined in Roe v. Wade and reaffirmed in Planned Parenthood v. Casey, is "the time at which there is a realistic possibility of maintaining and nourishing a life outside the womb, so that the independent existence of the second life can in reason and all fairness be the object of state protection that now overrides the rights of the woman" (emphasis added). In other words, just because one child survived, with the help of massive medical intervention, after being delivered at 21 weeks gestation does not automatically set the benchmark for viability at 21 weeks. There must also be a realistic chance of survival outside the womb.

Secondly, all post-viability abortions can be regulated by the state already -- that was the holding in Casey, so Gonzalez v. Carhart doesn't change anything in that regard. What Gonzalez did -- for the first time -- is declare that a certain procedure can't be used.
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