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Instinctive anger at the wealthy and/or wealth contrasts

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Apr, 2007 09:57 am
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
[But that doesn't really matter, nihm. A 70% tax rate hits everybodies salary at 70%.

Huh?

A 70% top tax rate, is all we ever talked about here. So the rest of your point is moot.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Apr, 2007 10:24 am
nimh wrote:
My anger that was momentarily projected on the happy young couple was not about them, obviously, as admitted many times - the anger was about the screamingly unjust chasm between the fate that they had the luck to face and the one that the poor couple was pretty much born into. Anger about that phenomenon was momentarily projected on them, as they are its involuntary beneficiaries.


Yea, one always has to be careful about saying they're stepping back. I had no intention of coming back to this thread because your desire to inflict violence on an innocent bystander, no matter how short the urge, leaves me cold. If you look at my posts throughout this thread, I think the word 'slap' shows up in every one of them.

I really can't give you an answer that would give you an equivalent injustice that would result in the desire to strike another individual because I quite honestly can't imagine such a scenario in either direction. I don't challenge your feeling of compassion for the older couple or even your observation and concern for injustices in the world. Anger about any phenomenon that is projected on an innocent bystander as it's beneficiary when it includes a desire toward violence on the innocent is incomprehensible to me.

My position isn't about you any more than yours is about them. Your ability to bring yourself into check and not strike out (at least this time) is irrelevant to the point I've been trying to make. The idea of an individual walking down the sidewalk and that someone perhaps not quite so in charge or their emotions as you are, or maybe even you with a stronger trigger than the one you saw, being the beneficiary of that anger is disturbing.
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Mame
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Apr, 2007 10:25 am
bm
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Apr, 2007 11:28 am
sozobe wrote:
CalamityJane wrote:
In all of my years doing volunteer work for the underprivileged, I rarely found lower income recipients who helped others, it was always the ones in the higher income brackets and the rich who helped either with monetary donations or time.


This was emphatically not my experience.

I saw people with no money helping other people with no money all the time, in ways large and small.


Well the National Center for Charities has a different statistic, than
the experience you have had, sozobe. Unfortunately the data is from 1997
but I doubt that it has changed over the years, more the contrary.

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/2379/statcf4.th.png
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Apr, 2007 12:22 pm
JPB wrote:
Your ability to bring yourself into check and not strike out (at least this time)

I can assure you that I've never slapped anyone at any time, for any reason, let alone on a passing impulse, so no cause for "at least this time"'s.

If I understand you correctly, you find the notion that people may ever feel some visceral, split second impulse to slap someone, for some reason or other not to do with that person, disturbing and incomprehensible.

I havent addressed this aspect of your posts yet, I think. Have you never in your life felt such a momentary emotion, that you can think of? No flash of similar anger that you got over at once - I dont know - say, for example, at some guy who for some reason reminded you of a bad man in your past, even though he didnt actually do anything?

I dont know. I havent really thought about the implications of having such a feeling in the first place. I'd like to think that the only difference with me, regarding encountering such a feeling, for whatever reason, I mean - is that I was aware of my feeling in such detail, and honest about it. Rather than that I have some sort of unusual agressive streak.

The number of posters here who've said they've had a similar feeling even just on this topic alone, does reassure me. But perhaps we'd need someone like dlowan to shed more light on that.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Apr, 2007 12:50 pm
CalamityJane wrote:
Well the National Center for Charities has a different statistic, than
the experience you have had, sozobe. Unfortunately the data is from 1997
but I doubt that it has changed over the years, more the contrary.

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/2379/statcf4.th.png

I dont understand that table, so I'll leave that up to Soz...

The statistics Ive seen all showed that people in lower-income brackets give more to charity - proportionally speaking, of course, not in absolute terms but in %age of income - than those with higher incomes, just like Christians give more than secular people, and people in rural areas and small towns give more than those in big cities.
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JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Apr, 2007 12:54 pm
nimh wrote:
If I understand you correctly, you find the notion that people may ever feel some visceral, split second impulse to slap someone, for some reason or other not to do with that person, disturbing and incomprehensible.


yes

nimh wrote:
I havent addressed this aspect of your posts yet, I think. Have you never in your life felt such a momentary emotion, that you can think of? No flash of similar anger that you got over at once - I dont know - say, for example, at some guy who for some reason reminded you of a bad man in your past, even though he didnt actually do anything?


honestly, no. Not one that brought me to the point of wanting to hurt someone, but then my emotions tend more towards tears than violence. Since becoming an adult, I can only think of one instance when I felt moved to striking anyone, and that person was definitely involved in the incident.

nimh wrote:
...I'd like to think that the only difference with me, regarding encountering such a feeling, for whatever reason, I mean - is that I was aware of my feeling in such detail, and honest about it. Rather than that I have some sort of unusual agressive streak.

The number of posters here who've said they've had a similar feeling even just on this topic alone, does reassure me. But perhaps we'd need someone like dlowan to shed more light on that.


And the number of posters here who've said they've had a similar feeling scares the bejesus out of me. I read through this entire thread three times before responding the first time. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. It was the chorus of 'me too's that shocked me. Many have spoken about similar anger and I kept hoping against hope that someone would qualify it with 'except the urge to slap someone', but no one did. I did note that no one else gave an example that included wanting to strike an innocent bystander so it remains my hope that I am correct in thinking that you were getting general rather than specific 'yeps'.

It isn't entirely fair of me to infer that I'm only concerned about the urge to strike out - however fleetingly. I am still generally concerned about the instinctive reaction towards a person that has nothing to do with that individual as a person. My first response was more directed to the visceral response to groups of people based on class, appearance, and status. I'm sure there are plenty of unresolved issues of my own that go into that concern.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Apr, 2007 01:12 pm
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
What I said was:

It amazes me that more people here have suggested bringing the yuppie couple down to a level closer to the poor drunk arguing couple than bringing the poor drunk arguing couple up to the level of the yuppies.

I did not claim it would make them poor.

Fair enough. In that case, your claim and Diane's are mutually compatible, and Diane's statement wasn't "bullshît", as you called it.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Apr, 2007 02:07 pm
Well, I can't say I've actually wanted to slap a stranger but I've certain had passing waves of antagonistic reaction cross my mind momentarily. I took nimh's desire to slap as primarily metaphoric, not even a potential action, even if he said the word slap in his mind.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Apr, 2007 02:07 pm
JPB wrote:
nimh wrote:
If I understand you correctly, you find the notion that people may ever feel some visceral, split second impulse to slap someone, for some reason or other not to do with that person, disturbing and incomprehensible.


yes

nimh wrote:
I havent addressed this aspect of your posts yet, I think. Have you never in your life felt such a momentary emotion, that you can think of? No flash of similar anger that you got over at once - I dont know - say, for example, at some guy who for some reason reminded you of a bad man in your past, even though he didnt actually do anything?


honestly, no. Not one that brought me to the point of wanting to hurt someone, but then my emotions tend more towards tears than violence. Since becoming an adult, I can only think of one instance when I felt moved to striking anyone, and that person was definitely involved in the incident.

nimh wrote:
...I'd like to think that the only difference with me, regarding encountering such a feeling, for whatever reason, I mean - is that I was aware of my feeling in such detail, and honest about it. Rather than that I have some sort of unusual agressive streak.

The number of posters here who've said they've had a similar feeling even just on this topic alone, does reassure me. But perhaps we'd need someone like dlowan to shed more light on that.


And the number of posters here who've said they've had a similar feeling scares the bejesus out of me. I read through this entire thread three times before responding the first time. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. It was the chorus of 'me too's that shocked me. Many have spoken about similar anger and I kept hoping against hope that someone would qualify it with 'except the urge to slap someone', but no one did. I did note that no one else gave an example that included wanting to strike an innocent bystander so it remains my hope that I am correct in thinking that you were getting general rather than specific 'yeps'.

It isn't entirely fair of me to infer that I'm only concerned about the urge to strike out - however fleetingly. I am still generally concerned about the instinctive reaction towards a person that has nothing to do with that individual as a person. My first response was more directed to the visceral response to groups of people based on class, appearance, and status. I'm sure there are plenty of unresolved issues of my own that go into that concern.


really, JPB? I am just as surprised with your answers and observations as you seem to be with everybody else's. You never had an urge to just kick somebody annoying in the shin in a overcrowded subway which halts every five meters and you have somplace to be, especially if that somebody is either too close, or doing something that's making you want to jump out of your skin? or just an urge to thrash around ("let's MOVE already!!!")
Like nimh, i would never even in my dream act upon those urges, but i'd be dishonest if i claimed not to have them. (especially when loud chewing gums or plastic bags rustling are involved... or feeling of powerlessness.).
Shrug. I think it's absolutely common, at least among people i know firsthand.
0 Replies
 
Chai
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Apr, 2007 02:19 pm
I feel and act on these urges all the time.

Not an hour ago I got out my car and slugged some woman who was taking too long to parallel park.

People quickly learn to keep out of my way.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Apr, 2007 02:20 pm
Laughing

<takes a step or two back>
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Apr, 2007 02:30 pm
nimh wrote:
Laughing

<takes a step or two back>

Hey nimh -- didja get to take her Fabergé eggs before she managed to hide them?
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Apr, 2007 03:56 pm
No, I was too afraid she'd slug me :wink:
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JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Apr, 2007 04:05 pm
dagmaraka wrote:
really, JPB? I am just as surprised with your answers and observations as you seem to be with everybody else's. You never had an urge to just kick somebody annoying in the shin in a overcrowded subway which halts every five meters and you have somplace to be, especially if that somebody is either too close, or doing something that's making you want to jump out of your skin? or just an urge to thrash around ("let's MOVE already!!!")
Like nimh, i would never even in my dream act upon those urges, but i'd be dishonest if i claimed not to have them. (especially when loud chewing gums or plastic bags rustling are involved... or feeling of powerlessness.).
Shrug. I think it's absolutely common, at least among people i know firsthand.


Really. I can honestly say I've never wanted to kick a stranger in the shins. Laughing I've given it a lot of thought over the last couple days and I really don't react outwardly (or even inwardly) in a physical manner to the actions of others (unless those actions involve someone hurting someone else). I'm more likely to step in when I hear or see the threat of something like that in an attempt to prevent it than I am to have those feelings myself. I abhor violence -- can't even watch a movie that includes someone being beaten. That's one reason why I've had such a strong reaction to this thread. I once heard one of my children threaten to slap the other one. After listening to me go on about it for what was probably way too long, I haven't heard it since.

I've also given a lot of thought to my own visceral reactions, particularly as they relate to someone not personally connected to me. I obviously have a visceral reaction against people judging someone without cause, otherwise I wouldn't be so hung up on it. And I also tend to not want to look at body piercings -- they give me the heebee jeebees -- but my reactions tend to be to avoid looking at that person. Not to judge them as some kind of... i don't know what, but to look away to avoid my own discomfort. I really can't comprehend wanting to strike out at someone else because I was just confronted by a group of kids covered in piercings, nor can I imagine a situation where I would want to strike out at someone after witnessing a different someone being degraded because of their appearance. I really don't get it (and as Thomas has said repeatedly, I don't have to).

I'm trying to imagine myself in the exact situation nimh has described. I almost think I would have attempted to interact with the older couple, but there's no way of knowing for sure. I know I would have felt guilty as hell if I didn't.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Apr, 2007 04:16 pm
JPB wrote:
I'm more likely to step in when I hear or see the threat of something like that in an attempt to prevent it than I am to have those feelings myself.


(Emphasis mine.)

I think that may be the center of it. I think most of us didn't see it as any kind of an actual threat. Since nimh was pretty clear that there wasn't even the slightest chance of him actually slapping this couple or anyone else in similar circumstances, and since we know him well enough via A2K to believe that, the part that was focused on was the why of it, as he requested.

I definitely identify with wanting to step in if there is an actual threat of violence, have done so many times myself.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Apr, 2007 04:29 pm
sozobe wrote:
JPB wrote:
I'm more likely to step in when I hear or see the threat of something like that in an attempt to prevent it than I am to have those feelings myself.


(Emphasis mine.)

I think that may be the center of it. I think most of us didn't see it as any kind of an actual threat. Since nimh was pretty clear that there wasn't even the slightest chance of him actually slapping this couple or anyone else in similar circumstances, and since we know him well enough via A2K to believe that, the part that was focused on was the why of it, as he requested.

Man, I've never even gotten in a fight in my life. Never hit someone, never slapped someone, nothing. Not even in self-defense (and I did get beat up once). When I'm sure that most of the guys here have been in some kinda fight or jostle once upon a time, even if just in their military service (didnt do that either).

By now I really do think too much is being read into this count (perhaps because it coincides with general disagreement about the topic?). And that the only difference between Dag and me and many others is, at most, that we're anal enough to name feelings even of the shortest duration and smallest consequence, and honestly hold forth about them.

I also note that whereas my visceral, momentary reaction is categorised as a possible "threat", Dag's reaction is reason for a Laughing - when it's exactly the same thing. Some kind of dissonance here. <shrugs>
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Apr, 2007 04:51 pm
In any case nimh, I'll say again that the thread was indicative, IMO of a fine self -awareness, and a healthy honesty in sharing that snippet of your life with us.
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Mame
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Apr, 2007 05:00 pm
That's true, snood, but we're no closer to solving the WHY of it than before. I certainly can't help, since that situation wouldn't have angered me.

Did it strike up something from your past, nimh? Did it remind you of something? Did anyone you love resemble the elderly couple?

Are you instinctively angry at other unequal situations? Perhaps it's a theme for you (not the slapping part, just the instinctive gut reaction).

Going by what I know of you here, it never occurred to me that you'd actually act on your momentary instinct; in fact, I'd place a pretty large bet that you wouldn't. And I know that feeling - I've felt like slapping lots of people - rude, condescending people; insensitive, uncaring people; discourteous, indifferent people - given the right situation, I have felt that, too.

But not the situation as you described it, just for people exisiting. I think as sozobe or someone earlier said, it was maybe displacement, seeing as you saw the young, happy couple immediately after feeling disquieted by the behaviour of the elder couple.

Just a few thoughts.
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Apr, 2007 05:15 pm
Mame wrote:
Quote:
That's true, snood, but we're no closer to solving the WHY of it than before. I certainly can't help, since that situation wouldn't have angered me.


Mame, this is the last line from nimh's launch post:

Quote:
Do you ever have this? Ever have something similar? Why, do you think? How would you interpret, digress, reflect about it?


He is clearly, IMO, asking if we have ever experienced anything similar, and if so, why do we think we felt that way. Inviting introspection, and seeking a chance to compare similar experience. Some like you made it very clear that you have never had that kind of reaction to that kind of impetus, and some have even gone further to say that they just don't understand what would make nimh react that way. Fine. Different strokes.

No, we are "no closer to solving the WHY" of nimh's particular case.

And?
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