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Instinctive anger at the wealthy and/or wealth contrasts

 
 
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 08:31 am
Sozobe, what difference does it make to anyone else if the rich guy has three yachts? It's nobody's business how he spends his money. ARe you suggesting he should give some of it to under-privileged people?
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 08:32 am
Thomas wrote:
Personally, I find that these neighborhoods offend not my sense of justice, but my sense of aesthetics.


Which is probably the real reason that anyone would get pissed at someone just because they were wealthy, apart from sour grapes.

Best line in this discussion so far.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 08:33 am
I don't think it is equitable for a society to tell someone they cannot own three yachts. However, i do consider it perfectly just to tax the bejesus out of them.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 08:34 am
Mame wrote:
Sozobe, what difference does it make to anyone else if the rich guy has three yachts? It's nobody's business how he spends his money. ARe you suggesting he should give some of it to under-privileged people?


I'm suggesting he should pay taxes, and that the taxes should a) be a pre-rollback amount (i.e. what he'd be paying before Bush came along) and b) not full of little loopholes that allow him to keep a yacht's worth of cash.
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Mame
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 08:37 am
The mind boggles.

Maybe you shouldn't own as much as you do, either. I think you have too much.

It's a ludicrous argument.

Have to run to work now and earn my measly pay which is heavily taxed so I can't afford a yacht.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 08:38 am
Thomas wrote:
Personally, I find that these neighborhoods offend not my sense of justice, but my sense of aesthetics. Neighborhoods get my creative juices flowing if they surround me with people who're different than me, and than each other. If I moved to Buckhead, I imagine I would die of homesickness for all the people who can't afford to live there, but do live and work in Schwabing: all those Turks, Vietnamese, Indians, low-income academics, and blue-collar traditional residents we still have here.


Same here. Schwabing sounds lovely.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 08:40 am
stuh505 wrote:
Sometimes I get annoyed thinking about how a legal or business job can fetch a disproportionate income based on required intelligence/difficulty/education

Yes, its definitely that, but with an emotional dimension. That goes a lot deeper.

stuh505 wrote:
For one thing, you cannot really say that the young couple was rich...it really does not take much money to dress richly, and a lot of young people just like to look sharp when they are actually pretty poor.

True true.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 08:41 am
I pay a ton of taxes too. Which I'm absolutely fine with.

Again, I'm not saying that all of this guy's wealth should be taken from him, or that there should be a "no more that three yachts allowed" law. I'm saying he should pay a reasonable amount of taxes, with "reasonable" being defined as "pre-Bush."

That's mind-boggling? OK.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 08:47 am
Mame wrote:
Maybe you shouldn't own as much as you do, either. I think you have too much.

1) I don't think Sozobe necessarily disagrees, as long as her taxes go to poor people.

2) To repeat what has been repeated already, nimh started this as a thread about instincts. He didn't start it as a thread about politics. Moreover, he stated in the clearest possible language what he thought about these instincts: "[T]o any standard of rationality, my instinctive agression to those two wealthy young people was completely unreasonable. But it was very real, and certainly not for the first time."

For Murphy's sake, pay attention to what people say before you call their statements "ludicrous".
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Chai
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 09:11 am
FreeDuck wrote:
Thomas wrote:
Personally, I find that these neighborhoods offend not my sense of justice, but my sense of aesthetics. Neighborhoods get my creative juices flowing if they surround me with people who're different than me, and than each other. If I moved to Buckhead, I imagine I would die of homesickness for all the people who can't afford to live there, but do live and work in Schwabing: all those Turks, Vietnamese, Indians, low-income academics, and blue-collar traditional residents we still have here.


Same here. Schwabing sounds lovely.


See that's the thing, you don't HAVE to go into these neighborhood and have your sese of aesthetics offended.
Well, if you HAD to go through them for some reason, and your sense of aesthetics is offended, big deal, peoples sense of aesthetics are offended at some point every day, but one thinks "well, that's what they like"

Also, no one is forced to live in that neighborhood, so there'd be no risk of being homesick.

What stuh said, about being annoyed some people get a disproportionate wage because it's based on specific education, knowledge, etc.

Well, I get annoyed at times when I see actors, sports figures, artists, musicians, poets etc. get money like that. I wonder why these, what I consider basically unnecessary to survival occupations should make so much.

The annoyance doesn't escalate to anger, because I realize that the people have spoken, and they are getting paid what the market will support. Do I agree with that? No. Could that money go to help the poor and still leave oodles for the performer? Yes.
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Chai
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 09:15 am
Huh, I guess my ideas are all wet, and there is an gut reacation...

check out this thread.

Instinctive anger toward celebs?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 09:15 am
katya8 wrote:
I believe that what you engaged in, was DISPLACEMENT, Nimh:

You were probably very angry at the Romanie couple for fighting and making you miserable with their miserable lives

Well that interpretation certainly took me aback ;-)

Umm no, absolutely not.

And here I'm going to go out on a limb, and possibly put myself out to ridicule: I dont feel that their misery invades my life, somehow, even just that bothersome split moment, because instinctively, immediately, what I feel is that they = me.

I know that sounds really stupid. I'm a white, middle-class expat in this country. On the material scale, I'm between the two couples, but obviously much closer to the prosperous one.

And yet thats what I feel: immediate identification with the worse-off couple. They're like me. Thats not rational, because they're not - and they'd be the first to scoff at the notion. I'm probably as alien to them as Bill Gates is to me. But its what I feel.

Whereas when I look at the yuppie couple, I feel only alienation. They're "them". The others.

----

Perhaps, strangely, the haplessness of the drink/argument situation actually reinforces that reaction.

If they'd been the streetsweepers, I'd have felt the same, but the feeling might have been overridden by guilt. They work much harder than me, and I earn five times as much.

But the haplessness and turmoil of this couple created a link between them and me. No, I'm not a drunk :-D (I hardly ever drink at all, in fact). But relationships that have spurred downward in a cycle of confusion and helplessness, increasing incapacity, that I know of - I was in one of those. And one of the problems in that relationship was also made up, I think, by the self-defense mechanisms (on her part) that come with growing up in poverty, which help you to survive but become self-destructive when trying to go beyond that.

Anyway, so perhaps in some way that detail offered something to personally recognize as well, creating a personal link on top of the social identification.

Because that remains too, as described above. I always have it. Whenever I see a contrast in wealth, I always identify with the poorer person. Well, 95% of the time. And I want to emphasize that I do so completely instinctively, unreasonedly, viscerally. And that feeling of identification comes, in time, before the articulation of corresponding political viewpoints. Which is interesting in re to Thomas's later point.

It's also certainly set me apart often from people around me - not friends, because those kind of self-select to be like me, but people around that. In Holland, I mean, here not so much - part of the reason I feel more at home here.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 09:20 am
Chai wrote:
See that's the thing, you don't HAVE to go into these neighborhood and have your sese of aesthetics offended.

Nobody says we have to.

Chai wrote:
Well, if you HAD to go through them for some reason, and your sense of aesthetics is offended, big deal, peoples sense of aesthetics are offended at some point every day, but one thinks "well, that's what they like"

This thread was started to discuss our instinctive reactions to poverty, wealth, and inequality. By definition, this makes them a big deal in the context of this thread. If you think these reactions aren't a big enough deal to merit a thread about them, that's fine! But maybe, just maybe you should then devote your attention to threads whose subjects you find more interesting.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 09:21 am
sozobe wrote:
Again, I'm not saying that all of this guy's wealth should be taken from him, or that there should be a "no more that three yachts allowed" law. I'm saying he should pay a reasonable amount of taxes, with "reasonable" being defined as "pre-Bush."

Oooh... - to just jump three pages ahead and into the politics of it - f*ck that - I want taxes to go back to the level they were at before Thatcher, Reagan, Kohl.

In Holland until the 90s we had a top tax rate of 70%. Bring it back.
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 09:25 am
nimh, I often have this sort of reaction to wealth.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 09:27 am
nimh wrote:
Oooh... - to just jump three pages ahead and into the politics of it - f*ck that - I want taxes to go back to the level they were at before Thatcher, Reagan, Kohl.

I, too, would like to pay the tax rates I would have paid under Helmut Schmidt. Then again, I also believe we are paying higher taxes now than we did under Helmut Schmidt. Reunifying with a poor country will do that to you. Razz
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Chai
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 10:33 am
Thomas wrote:
Chai wrote:
See that's the thing, you don't HAVE to go into these neighborhood and have your sese of aesthetics offended.

Nobody says we have to.

Chai wrote:
Well, if you HAD to go through them for some reason, and your sense of aesthetics is offended, big deal, peoples sense of aesthetics are offended at some point every day, but one thinks "well, that's what they like"

This thread was started to discuss our instinctive reactions to poverty, wealth, and inequality. By definition, this makes them a big deal in the context of this thread. If you think these reactions aren't a big enough deal to merit a thread about them, that's fine! But maybe, just maybe you should then devote your attention to threads whose subjects you find more interesting.


Thomas, I'm not directing this at you in particular, and I do find this thread interesting. Just making points in my personal communicatin style.

No harm intended
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Chai
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 10:54 am
Thomas wrote:
This thread was started to discuss our instinctive reactions to poverty, wealth, and inequality. By definition, this makes them a big deal in the context of this thread. If you think these reactions aren't a big enough deal to merit a thread about them, that's fine! But maybe, just maybe you should then devote your attention to threads whose subjects you find more interesting.



However Thomas, I do notice this. You said..

"Personally, I find that these neighborhoods offend not my sense of justice, but my sense of aesthetics. Neighborhoods get my creative juices flowing if they surround me with people who're different than me, and than each other."

You say this thread has to do with instinctive reactions to the poverty, wealth, and inequality...but that's not true, according to nimh, it's about Instinctive Anger toward the wealthy.

Several times now you have attempted to herd me and others back to the topic....however, at the same time you feel you have the option to talk about aethetics and your creative juices flowing and how you would miss people.

What does that have to do with the topic?

I'm not trying to start an agrument Thomas, but I don't feel you or anyone else needs to remind us of what we are "supposed" to be talking about.

If the topic turns political, perhaps it's because the initial premise has talked itself out, or that we are able to discuss 2 or more items in one thread.

In my experience, once a thread has gone more than a few pages, it can very well bare little resemblance to the opening post.
That's not necessarily a bad thing.

Go with the flow Thomas, the river will eventually wind back on itself, no need to force the tide.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 10:57 am
Interesting thread, nimh.

An instinctive reaction against the apparently wealthy...

I've had that. I don't know if it comes from what an individual has experienced in his life, whatever it is that predisposes someone to have that kind of reaction. But maybe that's some of what it is in my case. Besides being a bleeding heart, tax-and-spend liberal with a natural born hatred of the rich (I joke, I joke - I love the rich), I was homeless for the better part of a year in DC the late 1980's. I was in a drug&booze-induced haze much of the time, but even so, I can remember thinking how striking was the contrast between rich and poor. I could be walking down the street in NW, and go from being surrounded by squalor and people sleeping on heating grates to men wearing $800 suits in the blink of an eye, and it just seemed weird. It was during the lowest time in my life, so my impressions aren't probably that accurate, but I do remember feeling absolutely worthless. Maybe some of that time leeched over into more recent feelings I have...

A year or so after I joined the Army, I was on a flight from Missouri to NC. There was a State Senator from California in 1st class, and I remember intentionally bumping him as I deboarded. I said "excuse me" as I did it, but it was definitely intentional. Didn't know anything about the guy except that he was a state senator, white, and looked well-to-do.

Even though I've doen a lot better for myself since then, I'm sure there have been other times when my negative reactions were based on nothing more than the object of my ire looking rich. Can't say I'm sure why, but it's interesting as hell speculating...
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 11:29 am
Chai wrote:
You say this thread has to do with instinctive reactions to the poverty, wealth, and inequality...but that's not true, according to nimh, it's about Instinctive Anger toward the wealthy.

Two of nimh's questions in his initial post were: "Do you ever have this? Ever have something similar?" My instinctive aesthetic displeasure is within the scope of "something similar" as nimh's "instinctive anger".

Chai wrote:
Several times now you have attempted to herd me and others back to the topic.

I attempted nothing of the kind. You and Mame can talk about whatever the hell you want. Actually, I generally like your communication style -- especially considering that your avatar marks you as trailer park trash. Razz
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