Instinctive anger at the wealthy and/or wealth contrasts

I suppose, I got that instinct because I ... well, because I grew up in a small town in a neighbourhood where no-one really bothered about rich or poor.
And where it didn't matter if you were rich or poor: one helped and supported the other, everyone how she/he could and was able to do.


It might have other reasons - perhaps "as well other reasons" - that I fully understand how nimh reacted.

What I do know, however, is that although this instinct is still in me my reactions changed a bit, sometimes more than a bit: after I'd studied Social Work and especially after I taught that I "tried to cover" (I suppose) this instinct.

But that's just the result of reading quickly through this thread and reflecting a bit longer about it.

You got me there! One-nil for you.

Will return to all others later.. meanwhile, talk ahead.. pleasant surprise to see so much response, I'd expected this thread to remain all but unanswered!

Well, then stop reminding us what the topic is Thomas...I'm not an idiot. And please don't compare me with Mame, we have little in common.
Now drop it please, so I can enjoy reading others thoughts.


nimh...in your last post I think I'm maybe seeing what you're saying. The identifying with part.

All my grandparents came to the U.S. back in the 1920's with nothing, and this is what both my parents were born into.

My grandmother, although she died well off financially, would have appeared to have been a pauper to you. She could never get over being poor, and did things like buy dented cans where the labels had fallen off. Mystery Meal. We lived in the same house with us when I was a baby, and right next door to us my entire childhood. We were very close, and a lot of that "waste not, want not" idea is very strong in me.

My father saw an opportunity early in his life, grabbed it, and it grew beyond anything he could have imagined. Looking back now, I realize he had no idea how to handle the wealth. Being a depression child, he had a strong savings instinct, but at the same time wanted to look like a rich man. Which he did by always having a new luxury car, buying the finest booze, and taking extravagant vacations. He wanted others to see his wealth, so he made it a point to be seen in public taking his children to expensive restaurants (which I thoroughly enjoyed) or the lavish wedding. There was some kind of very bad breakdown in his thought process though, when it came to our private family life. I remember in school during bible class reading/hearing that bit about "What father would hand his child a stone when he asked for some bread" and I thought "My father would".
The bottom line is, I felt like I had a foot in not just 2, but three different worlds.

When public displays were made, I felt like such a fake. When denied something privately I felt unworthy. When I was in high school, I could not identify at all with the kids that did come from well to do families, as their past times seemed out of reach. However, I was equally confused by friends with families that were, well, not poor, just normal, and things my friends would mention about not being able to afford something right now.

So, when one talks about instincts about this matter, it doesn't ring a bell with me. If I could choose my life, I would have been the daughter of very poor people who showed love, rather than the richest of lifestyles, where one was raised in coldness. Both my parents are dead now, just as dead as a poor person, or someone who enjoyed their money and their lives.

One doesn't know what that person with nice clothes is going through, no more than you know what someone wearing patches feels. I don't think the wealthy should be envied in any way, until you know them well as an individual.

Again, just speaking for myself, it's really not envy. I said in an exchange with FreeDuck earlier that "willful ignorance" seemed to come closest to it. Some sort of broadcasting of an attitude of "yeah yeah yeah so there are poor people boohoo just keep 'em out of my sight I'm sure they deserve it anyway."

Again, I'm not making any claims that every person who garnered a "GRR" reaction from me actually thought anything like that. But that (or something like that) was I was reacting to rather than any particular envy. (I've known extremely wealthy people who didn't get that kind of reaction from me at all.)

wow, I'm having a really hard time getting things down right, but I'll try.

soz, I know you realize this, but there are also a lot of poor or next step up from poor, or one step down from middle class, or middle class that say..."oh yeah, look at those rich people, what do THEY have to worry about? They've got money, Life's easy for them"

I really feel weird and unworthy writing all this. Even a little bit sick to my stomach. But you don't know how many people, when they've would see my father pull up in his fancy cars, or snap his fingers and get priority service, or realize (in my small town) that I was "so and so's kid" would think I didn't have a care in the world. And I hate the thought that someone here is thinking that same thing. I feel like throwing up over that.

What F. Scott Fitzgeral said is true...the rich are different, they have more money.

Chai, I'm sorry you've felt that way. But I guess I dont understand how it relates to what Soz posted - to what she actually wrote, I mean. What in her actual post are you taking offense to?

I identify with what 2Packs said a while ago, about defending each side to the other. Yes, I do know what you mean, and have said as much to my clients. If there was someone here saying "all rich people are jerks and I hate them all" I'd be totally pouncing on that person.

But then I have also met a lot of rich people who present themselves a certain way (a way that broadcasts their wealth, especially) and who hold these incredibly backward ideas about why poor people are poor and what should or shouldn't be done about that issue. Who just plain don't care.

I guess at some point it becomes a generalization like anything else is a generalization. (Meet enough women in their mid-30's wearing ponytails, jeans, sneakers and no makeup who are hanging out at a playground who are moms, you start to think that the next woman in her mid-30's with a ponytail, jeans, sneakers and no makeup hanging out at the playground is also a mom.) Should generalizations be acted upon without more information? Of course not, nobody here is saying that. (Nimh didn't actually slap these people, nor did he say at any point that he should have.)

I'm not taking offense to anything soz said. I'm just pointing out that the street runs both ways. and that it feels just as bad to think others don't think you count for anything because you're poor, and it feels when others think you are somehow different because you have money it the bank. She made a point (a good one) that I've heard before, but I was commenting on the flip side.

Just as being, let's say beautiful doesn't make you happy, or shield you from loneliness, neither does having money.

On the other hand, how many people want to be near someone, or associated with someone, because they have physical beauty, or money?

****. I lost my post in hyperspace. I hate it when that happens. Because it never comes out right anymore when you try again. I'll try anyway.


No, its not envy, you're right.

I dont covet the young couple's posessions - well, I mean, I wouldnt mind having shirts that nice - but it doesnt evoke any strong emotion in me. And I havent got much to complain about myself anyway - I'm not rich, but I'm fine. Thats not the source of my reaction.

For me, its anger. Anger at just.. how unfair it is. However childish that may sound. At the sheer inequality. Between the one couple and the other. I have an almost physical instinctive reaction to it. It Just Is Not Right.

Of course I rationalise my immediate response, all within the split minute even already. I know that wealthy young couple hasnt actually done anything wrong. I know that I know nothing about them. I know not what troubles they themselves might have gone through; I know not what great deeds of charity they might have done; I know not how they got their money.

All I know is that this other couple is in the many-hooked clutches of trouble, and the difference is just too great. Nothing either man or woman could have done would justify some having so much more fortune than others.

Yeah.

In biographies of revolutionaries, if they're not so good, you tend to come across sentences like, "he could not stand the sight of inequality". Or injustice, poverty, etc. That's a hackneyed phrase, more a propos in a hagiography than in a serious work. Because such commonplaces hide (and are meant to hide) the complex motivations that drive people. Revolutionaries are driven as much by other things - vanity, megalomania, personal alienation, you name it - as by sincere idealism and indignation. (I once read an entertaining little article in a psychological journal that re-analysed the life of Bakunin, half tongue in cheek, entirely on the basis of diagnosing him as having suffered from some disorder or other.)

And yet - that emotion I had - I mean, I rationalised immediately. I winced, and sighed, and shrugged, and continued on my way. And ten minutes later I was having tea and cake. But then, in our times, in our countries, we've been well and properly trained to shrug off such foolish notions as that the basic structure of our society is wrong, or that it should or could be changed.

But if that feeling is strong enough, and the inequality is bad enough, and you do not have the temperament to always keep rationalising - yes, I think it must be something like that, which those biographers talk about.

Especially considering there were times when people werent quite as trained (indoctrinated?) to accept that Thats Just The Way It Is. I mean, when exactly did anger over inequality become "childish" anyway? When did the sentence, "it's just not fair" become object for ridicule? Each of the last three centuries has seen mass movements of people struggle and fight from a deeply held belief that society should be more fair. When did we become so blase that we look upon this kind of instinctive sense about something being unfair as a childish, naive thing, which sensible adults have long replaced by the lesson that "nobody said life would be fair", so suck it up and deal with it?

(No, thats not meant at any of you in particular. Just ranting.)

OK, gotcha, Chai.

---

Couldnt fit this paragraph in anywhere above:

And I'm not so naive as to think that with different luck, the roles of the couples might have been reversed. Well, anyone can hit rock bottom. Though even there, the risk of doing so becomes proportionally smaller the more you are blessed, by birth and environment, with the right social skills, education, social networks, moneyed friends or parents. As for the other way around - no. Eg, of Roma in Hungary, just 13% finishes high school, and 0,5% any education beyond that. The cards are stacked too heavily against them. To achieve the status of that young couple would, coming from that background, be a superhuman accomplishment, and most of us aren't superhuman.

oh, well, that's a different story, I hadn't realized the chasm in this case.

That's really more it, I think, than what I was saying later about generalization. The experience of knowing annoying rich people and extrapolating from there is part of it maybe, but that visceral NOT FAIR that's really more it. The basic concept of inequality rankling, no matter how its presented.

Yes! It is not fair. Especially for those of us who have worked with the poor, have a painful understanding of how stressful their lives are. Just one sickness or accident can put them into a state of complete devastation, both financially and emotionally.

Combine that with being exposed to the very rich who demean the poor and anger cannot be far away. It is instinctive and it isn't right, as far as making constructive changes is concerned, but to look at it and to analyze it is a healthy way toward understanding and changing that instinctive behavior, replacing it with a more balanced and realistic view of society.

The Way it Is - Bruce Hornsby

Standing in line marking time--
Waiting for the welfare dime
'Cause they can't buy a job
The man in the silk suit hurries by
As he catches the poor old ladies' eyes
Just for fun he says "Get a job"

That's just the way it is
Some things will never change
That's just the way it is
But don't you believe them

They say hey little boy you can't go
Where the others go
'Cause you don't look like they do
Said hey old man how can you stand
To think that way
Did you really think about it
Before you made the rules
He said, Son

That's just the way it is
Some things will never change
That's just the way it is
But don't you believe them

Well they passed a law in '64
To give those who ain't got a little more
But it only goes so far
Because the law another's mind
When all it sees at the hiring time
Is the line on the color bar

That's just the way it is
Some things will never change
That's just the way it is
But don't you believe them

Hah, a lot of hypocrisy here.

Thomas lives in one of the most desirable and also rather expensive places in all of Munich, the rents and real estate prices are sky high,
right Thomas? There are hardly any blue collar working neighbors around as they can't afford the high rent.

Sozobe, you did work in the poor neighborhoods and saw first hand the struggles and money woes of the poor, feeling more sympathetic with them, but you yourself were living in a much better neighborhood. Why would you object to the neighbor's diamond ring if you're living in the same community where people can afford such luxuries?

Why is the assumption that people living in Buckwheat are ignorant to poverty, and must be utterly unhappy, since we all know, money never
makes you happy?

In my town lived a rich lady who went to a pricey hairdresser every
day, she wore designer dresses, had expensive jewelry on her, resided in a mansion and was filthy rich. Yet she gave more to charity than
anyone every could imagine, and most of it she did in private and
anonymously. Her name: Joan Kroc (her husband founded McDonalds).

Don't judge a book by its cover!

Threads often digress into other discussions. For Murphy's sake, chill out.

Thanks CJ, interesting post.

bookmark......

CJane, from my very first post on this thread:



My second post:



Notice anything there?

And I roundly echo Chai's statement that she and I are nothing alike.