To whom did Jesus pray?

Kate is this my opinion or the word of God?

Ex 20:3
Thou shalt have no other gods before me

Comment:
This is not a vague verse that is easily reasoned away. On the other hand your trinitarian verses are vague at best. Considering the numerous verses that warn of idolatry, I would consider the sin of idolatry before adding two more Gods to the roster.

Before me means "in my face"... God wants no other Gods placed in his face...

rex its not idolatry if they are one God. You have ignored the verses i listed that call Jesus God. The bible also says Jesus is worshipped. The bible says God is the Only Savior of man, and then Jesus said he is the Savior of Man. God said only he can forgive sins, and then Jesus said he has the power to forgive sins. JEsus has all the divine attributes of God because he is God. There are not three Gods but one God in three persons. How can you ignore all the verses that call Jesus God, The great IAM?

Kate

1 + 1 + 1 = 3 Gods not 1

1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1 God (God cannot be all knowing and EVERYWHERE/omnipresent if he is divided upon himself.)

1 X 1 X 1 = 1 God (God times himself all three would have to be identical to equal 1.)

You are saying that three different persons are one, that is like saying 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 That simply is bad math.

The confusion of trinitarians is they do not distinguish between the creator and the creation, the giver and the gift, the God and his foreknowledge, the image and this thing that casts the image, the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven.

There is a line dividing these things.

Just as if you give God three names or characteristics or ten, they are still part of the creator. If you give God's creation names then you can give creation say three names (i.e. body soul and spirit) or ten or more... but no matter how you size it up they are still part of the creation not the creator.

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Comment: It is the confusion of these two kingdoms that images are worshiped as Gods. The creation is confused with the creator and the kingdom of God is confused with the kingdom of heaven thus in the end man is confused with God and then they exalt themselves up as gods all because of the doctrine of the trinity which states a certain man was once GOD... The trinity is what makes the Antichrist's (the son of perdition) future claim of being God believable.

2Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Comment:
But it is those of the spirit that know that spirit is but only an "image" of God himself and God looks into the pool of the spirit and the spirit reflects his "image" back. We do not worship the image of God but we worship God through his image.

Here is an excerpt from writings a while after the epistles were written.


THE GNOSTIC SOCIETY LIBRARY

The Nag Hammadi Library
The Apocryphon of John

"He is the invisible Spirit, of whom it is not right to think of him as a god, or something similar. For he is more than a god, since there is nothing above him, for no one lords it over him. For he does not exist in something inferior to him, since everything exists in him. For it is he who establishes himself. He is eternal, since he does not need anything. For he is total perfection. He did not lack anything, that he might be completed by it; rather he is always completely perfect in light. He is illimitable, since there is no one prior to him to set limits to him. He is unsearchable, since there exists no one prior to him to examine him. He is immeasurable, since there was no one prior to him to measure him. He is invisible, since no one saw him. He is eternal, since he exists eternally. He is ineffable, since no one was able to comprehend him to speak about him. He is unnameable, since there is no one prior to him to give him a name.

I'm in California, away from my favorite coffee spot for a few weeks, so this may not make sense. :wink:

You would have to point out the logical flaws in the assertion that Christ could have sinned.

One of the major issues between satan and Jehovah is that the resister has claimed that he could turn any creature against God, and that people would only serve him out of selfishness. (This was the point of his claim in the book of Job and does not deny Jehovah's power.)

Jesus was/is the first and foremost of all creation, so his living as a human, suffering temptation, torture and death is the definitive answer to satan's challenge. Satan gave Jesus all he could and failed.

My post is not meant to divide but to unify in compassion and peace with God. I have had to wrestle with the very same thoughts myself. I was fortunate that I learned of these matters young so they became clear for me.

I am well aware of (most) every scripture that is used to justify the trinity. They mean other things to me. Though few in number and vague as I say they can all be re-interpreted in light of much more plentiful truths and then it becomes evident that they were never meant to justify the trinity but when broken down they each and every one have another meaning that is their actual true meaning. In other words, the true meaning is obscured early on by the brilliance of the trinity.

Once the trinity is no longer a possibility then the scriptures logic becomes clear and they lead to much greater understanding. Where before the meaning came to a sudden halt and suffered confusion by the trinity's overall lack of coherence. It is like throwing a monkey wrench into a set of moving gears. It always manages to fetch up the machinery.

Thus, no matter how we have been taught that to forsake the trinity is blasphemy the truth is contrary. It is forsaking the trinity that make us Christian.

It is placing God back into his rightful place in the kingdom of God and placing the lord Jesus Christ in his rightful place in the kingdom of heaven (a place created by God).

It may seem like I am being harsh but my intent is contrary to that. It is just that the trinity is a very serious subject. It is like someone accidentally stepping in front of a train. You don't worry about hurting them, no, you just grab them and yank them out of the way.

The Bible say we will meet the lord "in the air"... It is for this reason that the Christian will never meet the lord here "on the earth" (in person that is).

Also let's discuss the words translated "falling away" in the King James Bible. Traditional theology interpreted has these words all wrong. They attribute this "falling away" to some sort of apostasy in the first century between the apostles. WRONG...

The falling away should be translated "departure".

What this verse is actually saying is that the Antichrist cannot rise until the church has left the earth.

That we are not supposed to fear that it is the ending days until there is first a "departure".

This word falling away is actually used in Euclidean geometry. It is easy to see why God used the classical period to give his greatest revelation to the church. In Euclidean geometry a falling away involves a circle with a point in the center. It is the act of drawing a line from the center point of the circle to a place outside the perimeter of the circle. How precise God uses words, with mathematical precision.

So this would be a departure, where the church is drawn from a place within the world to a point somewhere outside the world.

This event, departure, gathering day is recorded in 1Thessalonians.

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Comment: This is the falling away or departure. "Shall be caught up together" with them in the clouds. This is the drawing of the saints from the center of the circle to some point outside the perimeter of the earth.

2Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Comment: The departure first then the son of perdition can rise. The gathering day/departure/falling away (all describe the same event) must happen first before the son of perdition can rise.

Yet modern traditional theology has placed the church of the body of Christ in the midst of tribulations.

It is a principle of light, that apostasy cannot rise until the light has left the earth. So the spiritual light of Christ within believers is the only thing that stands between the rist of the antichrist and tribulations. This gathering day is a sign, YET TO COME...

Every scripture has some validity and worth in the Bible. They all have their purpose and intent. Just as these scriptures telling of a departure and "then" the tribulations after. It is this period of time between the law and tribulations that could hold off tribulations for may years to come. In fact maybe millions of years... In this time we will could be sleeping and this time will pass like blinking our eyes and we will awake in Christ and in the presence of God almighty.

The world can find peace in Christ and love can conquer fear. So the fears of the end of the world are unfounded and the fire and brimstone of the false prophets are only used to scare people into a submission that is not ordained of God.

For the sign that will mark the beginning of the end (gathering day) has not occurred yet and as long as there are believers on the earth the devil's vials of destruction will remain shut up tight.

So the believers stand in hope of this day where Christ Jesus may come while we are alive or his coming may awaken us after our human lifespan has passed.

Either way all who have perished are in the grave (not floating around in heaven and traditional theology has taught) and the only one who has been "raised from the dead" is the lord Jesus Christ.

Yet on that day of "departure" those with the spirit of Christ who are in the grave will awaken and meet the mortals on the earth who are alive at the time. The mortals who are alive at the time will be raised up into the clouds to meet the lord who will be with those who were asleep in Christ. So the mortal becomes immortal and the corruption of the grave becomes incorruption then. In the end they all are the same thing, saints of the most high God.

1Corinthians 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Comment:So are the dead alive now? NO.. (according to the Bible) they are asleep until this gathering day where the saints depart from the earth and this marks the beginning of tribulations and the rise of the Antichrist.

I am not sure what this "rapture" word represents in some denominations or if this is the same event but rapture seems erroneous or less specific, I prefer calling this event "the gathering day". This yet future day must precede the rise of the Antichrist... This gathering days is also not the same day as the resurrection day. A resurrection means that all people are dead where on the gathering day some people are still alive so this would not qualify as a resurrection day. Resurrection or judgment day is for after tribulations and the judgments are for those who lived and were under the law both prior to the epistle period and after the the epistle period during wrath.

So why are people looking in the past for this antichrist? Why do they look among us for them in our midst? Because they err in their understand of these key events. Because they take for granted that the church of the body is in the midst of tribulations where the Bible is teaching a whole other thing. This is the same brand of traditional theology that clings to the trinity and it is this very trinitarian doctrine that obscures these simple Christian truths of the hope of the return of Christ and the gathering day.

This gathering day must happen "before" the wrath of revelations even starts. For had it happened believers would not be sitting around casually discussing this I assure you.

Peace with God

Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

rex, neo...i know you guys aren't trying to be rude. we disagree, but it has been done respectfully...so no probs.....

but i do notice that neither of you are addressing the several verses i gave where Jesus is emphatically called God.

Rex you believe its idolatry to make Jesus God, Yet God himself called him God, his apostles called him God, and he was worshipped.


ok i hate to post and run but im gonna be gone all week to my sister's wedding. i would love to pick this back up next week on this topic if y'all are interested. The only request i have, is that, instead of opinion we discuss the scriptures that i listed. If you guys are interested. God bless.......

Sixty three times Jesus Christ is called "the son of God" in the Bible, God calls Jesus "his son in whom he is well pleased". Not once in the Bible anywhere is Jesus ever called "God the son..."

Kate the trinity only stands until you dig right below the surface and then it falls like a house of cards, like an illusion that when you reach out for it there is nothing there.

Jesus fought a god. He fought the "god of this world" and he triumphed over captivity and righted the dominion that Adam conferred to the devil. A mere man (body, soul and spirit) fought a god and won. But the devil was only the God of this world not the God of all creation. So Jesus won back the dominion over the earth that the devil tricked Adam and Eve out of. This dominion God gave to Adam and Eve and they gave it away out of disobedience and high treason.

So Jesus is now the "God of this world". But he is not the God of all creation. He is the lord/or God which means he is the head of all saints (saints meaning those with the gift of holy spirit born within) and the holy hosts of the kingdom of heaven. The first born of all creatures (creation).

The words "God head" should not be translated "God head" but "head God". The true God is the head God...

Have a nice week and wedding Kate...

Rex, Satan is still in charge of the affairs of this world and will be until Jesus defeats him and throws him into the abyss according to Revelation 20:2.

But you are correct in observing the fact that Jesus being the exact image of his father and his chief agent does not make him God's equal.

Many times in our language we refer to an agent acting in one's behalf as having an identity with the originator. The governor collects sales tax in our state, but not directly.

Yes, Jesus is like God (because he is the only mortal alive in heaven) to us just as the devil was the God of this world. Now that captivity has been led captive the devil's only power is when he convinces us we are not free, saved and talks us out of what is rightfully our own to claim. When God sees Jesus he sees his own image so God sees a reflection of himself. But in truth it is a reflection/creation of God and not God himself. We are also "created" in God's image (spirit) too so this makes us stand here upon the earth in God's stead as stewards of his gift. This gift is God in Christ in you. God was in Christ (reconciling himself unto the word) in the same manner that we now have Christ in us but also an image of Christ (God's spirit) and not actually Christ himself but we command that authority and dominion of the king and queen while they are gone. (from the earth that is)

Romans 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Comment:
When the devil looks at a Christian he sees God reflected in Christ. So instead of only one Jesus Christ (with God 's spiritual image) now there are "many".

When Jesus Christ loved us (not with his own love) he loved us with the love of God and we now, through Christ, have God's capacity to love in us.

When the new testament speaks of "the love of God" it is not talking about our human (Gr. phileo) love toward God but it is talking about God's capacity to love (Gr. agape) in us.