To whom did Jesus pray?

rex not if you consider phil 2:6-7. which trinitarians do.

Perhaps trinitarians should either use the Revised Standard Version or continue reading in Philippians where Jesus became obedient (vs. 8) and God exalted him (vs. 9). Statements which prove the trinitarian idea absurd.

Using the same logic that makes Jesus God would make us God too... This is why the Mormons believe that "God" changes frequently. That humans in heaven are always warring over the throne of God. The trinity has led that religion to proclaim deceased humans as all vying for the throne of God. The trinity has only led to pure idolatry.

The devils told this lie to Eve... "Ye shall be as Gods"... He figured if he could get Eve to believe the lie he could get the rest of the world to believe it too.

Neo you can't negate verses 6-7 which says he thought it not robbery to be equal to God...but lowered himself...perhaps people who deny the trinity should read these two verses first before pointing out that he was submissive and exalted in verses 8-9. If one would, instead of believing bits and pieces of the bible, actually read every verse, they would see that as is the case with these verses, Christ was God in pre-incarnate form, but lowered himself to come in the form of a servant and thus was subordinate to God the father. There are too many verses that call Jesus God, to just ignore. But i guess Isaiah, Moses, David, Paul, and all the apostles, had absurd ideas also for believing Jesus was God.

You would have us believe that he was submissive and obedient to himself and was exalted by himself, that he prayed to himself and was resurrected by himself.

To any reasonable person, the fact of his obedience and submissiveness, the necessity for his resurrection from death (a state of unconsciousness) and his praying to another, coupled with his clear statements such as 'the father is greater than I'; 'I do the will of him that sent me' and 'the slave is not greater than his master' etc., etc., blah and blah, not to mention our own definitions of the words 'father' and 'son' are each and separately sufficient to relegate the idea of the trinity, a word which does not appear in the bible, to its well deserved pagan trash can.

neo im not suprised you have totally ignored verses 6-7. If Jesus thought it was ok to be equal to God, (and noone is but God himself), then he was either a loon, a blasphemer, or God. You ignore all the verses given by the men i named that stated Jesus was God, worthy of worship, etc.
Jesus is God and he is the son. He was exalted and submissive. You may not comprehend it but the bible is clear and if you interested in doing a verse by verse analysis, I am all for it. And yes the word trinity isn't in the bible, but neither is Jesus called Michael the archangel (as your church believes). Atleast in my case, there is scripture to validate my belief.

You should read vss. 6 and 7 in some parallel bibles.

The fact that we would have no hope at all were it not for Jesus Christ, and that he is divine not make him equal to his father. If that were true the names could be used interchangeably. You could say the holy spirit lived as a man and gave his life for us. . . .

neo the nasb is the most accurate with the kjv a close second...both say it. and regardless....all the translations (accredited) say Jesus is God, The Almighty, The IAM, worshipped by men. The reason God and Jesus and the Holy SPirit aren't interchangeable is because of the trinity. But they are all three still one God. And if your willing, we can go through verses, one by one, that call Jesus God and debate them.

How about some basic reasoning? When Satan tempted Jesus, was it possible for Jesus to have sinned? If so, against whom would he have transgressed?

Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Comment:
Kate, when you look in the mirror what do you see? You see your form... You see an image of yourself...

When God created man/woman in his own image he put his own form in them not their own form. This form is the holy spirit... This spirit is in God's infinitely diversified form. We have this form within us through Christ, yet we humble ourselves as servants in honor of the God whose image we represent...

Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Comment: An image of something is not the same thing as the real thing. Yet an image of God still holds the resemblance and characteristics of the God it portrays. The image is simply that, an image...

The firstborn of every creature, notice the word create in the word creature? That is because creatures are created.. Who do you suppose created the first born of the spirit? The holy spirit was created by God. (..."created" man in his own image). To be first "born" signifies a beginning and God's kingdom has no beginning or end.

Christ Jesus represents God's purpose through God's "creation" of the holy spirit.

The likeness of men is the law and Jesus fulfilled the law.

It was mankind who sinned and God could not ethically come down and pay for the sins of another while the sinner goes free. Would that be lawful and just? A son must pay for his own sins. It would take the second Adam to pay for the first Adam's sins.

We are "equal" to God in the same way the firstborn Christ is, because we have God's spiritual image within the very core of our being, not our own...

Mark 12:16
And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's.

12:17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

Comment: We should never rob God and render the glory of his property to any man or Caesar... Rather we are to acknowledge the spirit is in God's image for a purpose. So we can't screw things up for ourselves and thus our redemption is guaranteed as the "holy" spirit is perfect and incorruptible.

Romans 1:23
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

2Corinthians 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Comment: How much clearer can the word of God get? Jesus Christ in not God he merely bore the image of God. When we bear the image of God it is like lassoing a star and riding your way into eternity. Christ Jesus was the first to punch a hole through God's fire wall and make an abode there for us in heaven. Bought and paid for with a price.


Peace with God.

neo you and i discussed this before and i gave you the different greek definitions of the word tempt and showed that the greek used in reference to the tempting of Christ didn't mean he struggled to not sin. That same greek word tempt is the used many times one mocked or called to question God also. So are you going to say God can sin? Sorry but scriptures show that Jesus is God.

rex you totally ignored the first verse you used. "Christ thought it not robbery to be equal to God." Noone is equal to God, so for Christ to believe he was equal to God, he was either delusional or God. And i know he wasn't delusional. So many verses call him God. Isaiah 9:6 when Christ is called Mighty God. Or what about when Thomas, after touching Christ's scars, fell to his knees and called JEsus "MY Lord, MY GOD" Or john 1:1 which says the WORD(ChRist) was with God and was God. And rex study the greek.... "firstborn of creation" doesnt mean he was created. I challenge you to get a very good (accredited) greek dict or commentary and see for yourself. If you can't find it, i will type it on here with references. Even in the creation story God said "LET US make man in our image" TRIUNE GOD. If Jesus wasn't GOd in the flesh then he couldnt have been perfect and he couldnt have been enough to die for our sins. THere are so many verses that show Christ as God and show his attributes of deity. So if you say that Jesus isn't God, then you have to say God's infallible word contradicts itself.

Hardly, but Jesus could have failed. Why else would Satan have tried so hard to divert him?

It's amazing the number of conundrums trinitarians impose upon themselves, so that in the end they can say we're not really supposed to understand because God's ways are not our ways.

Kate I did not ignore the verse but maybe I did not expound enough for you so I will try again.

My point is that YES Christ was equal to God... But he humbled himself to God. I totally believe that. Why did he humble himself? Maybe because he knew he was not God but only an "image" of God.

An image resembles the thing it represents thus it can be considered equal in face value. The holy spirit is the only material thing that God has placed his image within. Thus it is not robbery to be equal in face value but the currency's image itself belongs to God. So they are co-equal in spirit but not in person... Because Christ is an image of God and not the actual thing that created the image. Just as the angels are spirit beings and they were created before Adam and Eve.

This may be the reason why God refers to creating man in "our" image? ...because the spirit angels were created already when God was creating his spirit image in Adam. The image of the righteous angels being spirit is also cast in the holy image of God, God being the creator and the spirit being the created.

The idolatry in the pagan trinity can be pushed too far and then it does become robbery to God. Jesus prayed to God... so should we then pray to Jesus, or follow his example and likewise pray to God. In the lords prayer Christ instructed Israel to pray to God not himself. If he was so clearly God he would not have had to act as a high priest for their sins.

Heb 6:20
Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Comment: God is not a high priest to himself.
Jesus gave the glory to God our spiritual father and we are to walk in Christ's example of love toward our holy spiritual creator.

The study of image comes long before any vague Biblical claims of human divinity. For it is certainly abundantly clear in the Bible that God desires that we NOT worship "images" as God... Much more clear than the scriptures that are unclear at best that seem to point to divinity for the second Adam.

Ex 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Le 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

Comment: Those words were spoken through God's prophet Moses.

It is God's holy spirit image in us and though we equal him in representation, character and likeness we do not equal him in omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence.

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

We utilize his holy spirit within us which represents the body of Christ. In the manifestation of the spirit God is worshiped through us.

No where in the Bible are we instructed to pray to Jesus.

Kate the Bible may seem to in some places to attribute divine qualities to Jesus Christ but we also are endued with these same qualities through the through the very same gift from the giver God.

Instead of just calling Jesus God maybe we should ask why he if he was God would even be concerned about "robbery"... He would not have even considered the thought.

We might also take a lesson from the devil who not only was equal also to god but did not humble himself to God's will and God cast him out of heaven...

Don't let the trinity lead to God's wrath. If Jesus wanted us to know he was God there are much more clear ways one could express that and it is certainly not by being humbled by any powers that be.

Jesus could have said I am Jesus and I am your God? Or he could have said pray to me or he could have said, he was never created. Instead he says he and God are one... in will and purpose. We are one with God too... because God's "image" is in us not Jesus' image not the image of the world, and not our our own image... but God's image...

This make US co-equal with God this places the perfection of God, in Christ in us...

2 Timothy 3:17
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Comment: Thruly furnished.

And i can also ask Why would satan have tried so hard to overthrow God, if there wasn't the possibility of God being defeated? Neo, you can't use that circular argument to prove a point. Satan tempted Christ because he was vain enough to believe he could cause Christ to sin, just as he was vain enough to think he could overthrow his own Creator.

The idea of being "equal" is that two things are needed in order for our faith to be finished.

God and Christ.

But God is like the sun and Christ is like the moon, the earth depends upon the both for life to evolve.

The moon is equal to the sun because the moon radiates the image of light from the sun. Yet the truth is that the moon is only a tiny rock and it's light is only equal in that it's light is in truth light produced by the sun and not the moon. The light of the moon is equal with the sun but the moon itself is only a tiny barren fleshly form of rock and earth. It is the sun that gives the moon it's spirit. The moon perplexes the inhabitants of the earth because it has been thrown down to the earth. So this tiny rock seems like a giant God of a planet. The moon appears as Godlike as the sun. They are equally as vital to day and night and to the balance and cycles of the earth's isostacy. So the moon is equal with God the sun but that is only the case in the perspective from the earth. The rest of the solar system is unaffected by the earth's moon. But we vitally depend on the moon also for our life. In reality the moon is only a tiny stone from the dust of the sun that was thrown down from the great heavens of the sun down to the earth. The sun shines it's image of light and it reflects off the moon... for the moon has no light of it's own whatsoever but it only beholds like through a glass the image of God the sun. The moon reflects the sun's glory. God has written the truth in his creation. For the moon has seemingly little impact on the sun except for how it relates to the earth. As the relation of the creator to the creation is a minuscule fraction of God entire kingdom.

It is this moon (Christ) that will transform into the spirit and return us back to God the sun.

1Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Comment: The Bible states that Jesus is now seated on the right hand of God, if Jesus was God he would be sitting on his own hand.

Think about what you are saying. Jehovah's power never has been questioned. The challenge made by Satan is in the rightfulness of Jehovah's sovereignty and the integrity of his creatures.

Satan never thought he could overthrow Jehovah, but he believes he can turn intelligent creatures away.

So it is not that Jesus is inferior to God. Jesus fulfilled all that was required of him. That is all that you can ask of a person. To live to their capacity. To face whatever life has to offer with dignity and grace. For what we see is only the beginning of the glory yet to come.

There is no need when one is full. When one is full and overflowing their capacity this is joy. This is why we can equal God because he have the love of God and the joy within his heart within our own. The faith of Christ and the peace of God...

For God so loved the world that he gave...

We have the capacity to know God's love and the depth of his joy.

What need will there be for science when all is pure bliss? When knowledge is no longer even a memory and we are home within God's royal household and the knowledge of this world will have vanished. When there will be no remembrance of the past but there will be the fountain that fills to overflowing the spirit with everlasting life. There will be the lamb of God and unrighteousness will never enter into the new world without end. Amen

There is the kingdom of God and there is the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of God is where God is and the kingdom of of heaven is where Jesus is.

God is the Lord and Jesus is the lord, God is the Holy Spirit and Jesus is the holy spirit... Jesus is God's plan of redemption. God who is all knowing can see ahead in the future.

This is whey the devil tries to tempt God. Because the devil cannot see the future. The devil also cannot read your mind. Only God knows your heart. The devil only sees what you do and he can hear what you speak out loud or whisper to a friend. The devil is familiar with your voice and can imitate it. The devil cannot invent he can only counterfeit... His ONLY motive is to steal, kill and destroy.

The devil only knows his time is short compared to all eternity.

Jesus has assumed the throne that the devil once had. The devil was once the angel of light but then he became corrupt and he uses light to manipulate and draw people in. He uses a bit of truth. Because people would not follow into a religion if there was not some truth. But we need to extrapolate all of the kernels of truth from all of the information in the world and come up with the pure truth.

God is love, God is light and in him is no falseness or deception.

People get lost because they think in terms of here and there. There is no here and there because we are all born again with a bit of the creator's image. This make us no longer only a human being but it make us a creature. We now are both here and there at the same time, we are plugged right into the mind/heart of God.

This is what revelation is, this is what walking by the spirit is, this is the inspiration or in spirit action of God. This is the very definition of creation happening in real time. We are already in heaven. Seated in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus.

We are in his body, we are children of the light, the light of God in Christ Jesus. Stars in the heavens, sand on the beach and dust in the wind.

neo you tried to prove that Christ could have sinned, thus proving he isn't God in the flesh, simply because satan had the audacity to tempt him. That is an illogical argument filled with flaws. I simply pointed out that you can't use that instance of satan "Trying to cause Christ to sin" as a way to disprove his deity, because that same satan "tried to overthrow God" There was never any possibility of God being overthrown by his creation, nor was than any possibility of Christ sinning.

rex if you believe that the bible is the infallible innerant word of God, then you can't deny the verses that call Jesus God.
Isaiah 9:6
John 1:1, 1:14, 8:58, 20:28
Hebrews 1:8
Rev 1:8


There are so many. You have attempted to explain away Christ's deity with your own opinions, not the word of God. (Please note im not trying to be rude) Our opinions or explainations mean nothing. God's word is complete and true in all sense. The bible shows Jesus is God and he is the son. He allowed men to call him God and he allowed men to worship him. If he isnt God, then he was a sinner for allowing these things. And i know he is God.