Restaurant Takes On Rowdy Kids

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Restaurant Takes On Rowdy Kids
Should Parents Have to Leave Children Home When Dining Out?

By JOHN STOSSEL and CHRISTOPHER ST. JOHN

March 22, 2007 - - Have you ever found yourself counting the seconds until your check arrives at a restaurant? Not because the food, service or ambience were lacking, but because someone's child was running laps around the place, hiding under the tables, and practicing his dinosaur roar at ear-splitting volume.

Or maybe you've been on the other side, out to a family meal with the kids, proud of their behavior -- which in any other situation might be called exemplary -- only to be berated by a fellow diner who believes that children "should be seen and not heard"?

Either way, the moment probably doesn't rank among your top ten dining experiences. Whether they're well-behaved kids bored of waiting for their grilled cheese to arrive or poor-mannered brats hell-bent on ruining a meal for everyone within screaming distance, the friction created by kids in restaurants is something many of us have experienced.

In one Chicago community these tensions reached a boiling point when Dan McCauley, owner of a local cafe, A Taste of Heaven, decided he had had enough of children using his establishment as a playground.

Heaven and Hell

One afternoon, McCauley said, he caught a pair of kids scaling the walls of his restaurant while their parents sat nearby. As the group was leaving, McCauley confronted Julie, one of the supervising mothers, and told her that she and her children were no longer welcome in the cafe.

"I was so shocked," said Julie, who out of concern for the children's anonymity asked that her last name not be used. "It made me feel like I was in the second grade, having my knuckles whacked or something."

The following morning McCauley posted a sign on the front door, thinking it would be a simple solution. It read: "Children of all ages have to behave and use their indoor voices when coming to A Taste of Heaven"

To his astonishment, the sign quickly provoked a strong response within the community. "We had like 50 or 60 phone calls," McCauley said. "People stating that they were really offended, and they would never step foot in here again, which really surprised me." A local newspaper even wrote that a group of concerned parents was going to boycott the cafe.

The Debate Changes

But then things began to change, when the story was picked up outside of the community and reported nationally. All of a sudden, McCauley said, the steady stream of angry phone calls turned into a tidal wave of support.

Letters applauding the restaurant's stand against rowdy kids began to arrive from around the country, some from as far away as Singapore and the United Kingdom. McCauley even received some small checks from supporters worried he would lose business.

The story reflects a debate that has long been simmering in online chat rooms and letters to local newspapers: How should children be expected to behave in public places, and especially in restaurants? Disciplinarians, advocates of hands-off child rearing, the childless, and mothers of six all seem to have an opinion.

The point of contention is rarely whether or not children should be allowed in restaurants, or whether or not they should behave. Most agree that kids are welcome to dine out as long as they don't make nuisances of themselves. But tempers seem to flare when the topic is addressed in public.

'It's Like Speaking Against Nuns'

Ralph, the husband of Julie and father of the children banned from A Taste of Heaven, said that while it was hard not to agree with McCauley, "What I'm saying is that there are ways to approach this issue without making parents feel uncomfortable, patronized, pushed away."

Meanwhile, Ted, a Taste of Heaven patron who gave only his first name, had his own theory to explain the nation-wide debate touched off by the cafe's sign.

"It was kinda groundbreaking," he said. "It's almost taboo. Children definitely are the one thing that you cannot speak against in our society. They are innately good. It's like speaking against nuns. You know what I mean?"

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[...] McCauley posted a sign on the front door, thinking it would be a simple solution. It read: "Children of all ages have to behave and use their indoor voices when coming to A Taste of Heaven" [...]

I don't see any problem with posting a sign like this. There's no reason why responsible parents should feel offended by this.

It's the parents who don't give a damn about the other customers at the restaurant that are reacting to this sign. After all, others have the right to have an enjoyable time there, too.

It all comes down to folks being reasonable and respectful of others, just like it used to be when smoking was allowed everywhere. The same sort of thing applies to places like movie theatres.

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Oh, man. This is tough.

Last Saturday we were all out running errands and found ourselves in the area of my very favorite restraunt right around lunch time. Mr. B suggested we stop in to eat.

<sigh>

Mr. B and I used to eat there at least once a week. We've taken Mo there on special occassions but it is really a grown up place. They welcome kids but they don't cater to kids, if you know what I mean.

<sigh>

I looked in the back seat at a tired, cranky, hungry Mo and said "I don't think today is a good day to go to J's".

<sigh>

I applaud the restaurant owner's response. I don't like to eat out when kids are running rampant unless it is a place designed for kids to do so.

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People take it as a personal attack on their kids when you bring it to their attention the kids misbehaved. That was my experience raising my own children.

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My wife and I had compliments from folks in a fancy seafood buffet style restaurant we went to when my oldest daughter was somewhere between 3 and 4 years old. It was our wedding anniversary and we couldn't find a sitter. We were very proud of her excellent behaviour and remember the occasion to this day.

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A day to be framed. Not to be repeated, probably.

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The restaurant is less than a mile from my house. I think I know where I will be having breakfast tomorrow. Thanks Reyn.

A review on the restaurant

Everything at this dessert shop and café is cooked from scratch on the premises. A refrigerated case displays baked goods and pastries, and soups and sandwiches are also highlighted. Daily brunch offers choices like breakfast casserole and buttermilk pancakes. Entrees feature a house-made chicken and biscuits and spinach lasagna.

Hours: 7 a.m.-10 p.m. Monday through Thursday; 7 a.m.-11 p.m. Friday-Saturday; 8 a.m.-10 p.m. Sunday

Brunch is served daily until 3 p.m.

Extras

Av. Dinner Entree $8-$15
Buffet No
Carry Out Yes
Cuisine Bakery, Coffee Houses, Deli, Ice Cream, Sandwich/Coffee
Family Oriented No
Meals Served Breakfast (Served all day), Brunch (Daily until 3 p.m.), Dinner, Lunch
Outdoor Seating For 20
Parking Street parking possible
Payment Method Checks, Visa, MasterCard
Reservations Accepted? No
Seating For 40
Smoking No
Specialties Scones
Transportation CTA bus (#22 Clark), Red Line train (Berwyn), Cabs plentiful
Wheelchair Access Including restrooms

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Here's the NY Times's coverage of the event:

At Center of a Clash, Rowdy Children in Coffee Shops

Some choice excerpts:

Quote:

But many neighborhood mothers took umbrage at the implied criticism of how they handle their children. Soon, whispers of a boycott passed among the playgroups in this North Side neighborhood, once an outpost of avant-garde artists and hip gay couples but now a hot real estate market for young professional families shunning the suburbs.

"I love people who don't have children who tell you how to parent," said Alison Miller, 35, a psychologist, corporate coach and mother of two. "I'd love for him to be responsible for three children for the next year and see if he can control the volume of their voices every minute of the day."

Mr. McCauley, 44, said the protesting parents were "former cheerleaders and beauty queens" who "have a very strong sense of entitlement."

Quote:

An online petition urging child-free sections in North Carolina restaurants drew hundreds of signers, including Janelle Funk, who wrote, "Whenever a hostess asks me 'smoking or non-smoking?' I respond, 'No kids!' "

At Mendo Bistro in Fort Bragg, Calif., the owners declare "Well-behaved children and parents welcome" to try to stop unmonitored youngsters from tap-dancing on the 100-year-old wood floors.

Menus at Zumbro Cafe in Minneapolis say: "We love children, especially when they're tucked into chairs and behaving," which Barbara Daenzer said she read as an invitation to cease her weekly breakfast visits after her son was born.

Even at the Full Moon in Cambridge, Mass., a cafe created for families, with a train table, a dollhouse and a plastic kitchen in a carpeted play area, there are rules about inside voices and a "No lifeguard on duty" sign to remind parents to take responsibility.

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Here in Chicago, parents have denounced Toast, a popular Lincoln Park breakfast spot, as unwelcoming since a note about using inside voices appeared on the menu six months ago. The owner of John's Place, which resembles a kindergarten class at recess in early evening, established a separate "family friendly" room a year ago, only to face parental threats of lawsuits.

Many of the Andersonville mothers who are boycotting Mr. McCauley's bakery also skip story time at Women and Children First, a feminist bookstore, because of the rules: children are asked not to stand, talk or sip drinks.

When a retail clerk at another neighborhood store asked a woman to stop breast-feeding last spring, "the neighborhood set him straight real fast," said Mary Ann Smith, the area's alderwoman.

Quote:

After a dozen years at one site, Mr. McCauley moved A Taste of Heaven six blocks away in May 2004, to a busy corner on Clark Street. But there, he said, teachers and writers seeking afternoon refuge were drowned out not just by children running amok but also by oblivious cellphone chatterers.

Children were climbing the cafe's poles. A couple were blithely reading the newspaper while their daughter lay on the floor blocking the line for coffee. When the family whose children were running across the room to throw themselves against the display cases left after his admonishment, Mr. McCauley recalled, the restaurant erupted in applause.

Quote:

"The looks I would get when I went in there made me so nervous that I would try to buy the food as fast as I could and get out," said Laura Brauer, 40, who has stopped visiting A Taste of Heaven with her two children. "I think that the mothers who allow their kids to run around and scream, that's wrong, but kids scream and there is nothing you can do about it. What are we supposed to do, not enjoy ourselves at a cafe?"

Ms. Miller said that one day when her son, then 4 months old, was fussing, a staff member rolled her eyes and announced for all to hear, "We've got a screamer!"

Kim Cavitt recalled having coffee and a cookie one afternoon with her boisterous 2-year-old when "someone came over and said you just need to keep her quiet or you need to leave."

"We left, and we haven't been back since," Ms. Cavitt said. "You go to a coffee shop or a bakery for a rest, to relax, and that you would have to worry the whole time about your child doing something that children do - really what they're saying is they don't welcome children, they want the child to behave like an adult."

Quote:

Mr. McCauley said he would rather go out of business than back down. He likens this one small step toward good manners to his personal effort to decrease pollution by hiring only people who live close enough to walk to work.

"I can't change the situation in Iraq, I can't change the situation in New Orleans," he said. "But I can change this little corner of the world."

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sublime1 wrote:

The restaurant is less than a mile from my house. I think I know where I will be having breakfast tomorrow. Thanks Reyn.

Glad to be of service. Why not report back here and let us know how your trip to that restaurant worked out? Would be interested in all details. Smile

Shapeless wrote:

Here's the NY Times's coverage of the event:

At Center of a Clash, Rowdy Children in Coffee Shops

Some choice excerpts: [...]

Thanks for those excerpts and adding to the thread. Very interesting!

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Previous discussion on this topic, starts about here with the same 2005 article I think:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1682786#1682786

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I agree with just about everything but this...

Quote:

When a retail clerk at another neighborhood store asked a woman to stop breast-feeding last spring, "the neighborhood set him straight real fast," said Mary Ann Smith, the area's alderwoman.

The neighborhood should have set him straight. This clerk was being a dick.

And I say this as a woman who has never given birth and therefore never breast-fed. People who get "upset" over a woman feeding her baby are complete dorks.

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sozobe wrote:

Previous discussion on this topic, starts about here with the same 2005 article I think:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1682786#1682786

Wow, you've got a good memory to dig that up from 2 years back. It is indeed the same restaurant and basicly the same story.

Thanks....

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Shapeless wrote:

Here's the NY Times's coverage of the event:

At Center of a Clash, Rowdy Children in Coffee Shops

Some choice excerpts:

...
Quote:
...

Kim Cavitt recalled having coffee and a cookie one afternoon with her boisterous 2-year-old when "someone came over and said you just need to keep her quiet or you need to leave."

"We left, and we haven't been back since," Ms. Cavitt said. "You go to a coffee shop or a bakery for a rest, to relax...."

...

I recall this story from before, too. Heh, she goes to a café to relax, yet how is that even possible if her child is wailing or endangering him/herself by getting into inappropriate places? Boggles the mind.

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sozobe wrote:

Previous discussion on this topic, starts about here with the same 2005 article I think:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1682786#1682786

Yeah, this is really old news. Not sure why the story has come back now.

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I like this comment...

"I love people who don't have children who tell you how to parent," said Alison Miller, 35, a psychologist, corporate coach and mother of two. "I'd love for him to be responsible for three children for the next year and see ifhe can control the volume of their voices every minute of the day."

My response - I have two young children and no you cannot control the volume of their voices every minute, however, you are the parent and can remove the child when their voices are too loud or they act inappropriately.

Like Reyn I have taken my young children 4 and 8 to non-child friendly restaurants. More recently we were complemented on their on behavior and told how it is a refreshing change.

On the other hand also recently, I had just the opposite when I took them shopping. I was shopping for much needed items but my older child was being loud, not listening to my instructions to behave and listen. Even though I really needed the items was out purchasing, I put the items back on the shelves and left the store. Believe me it wasn't easy and made my day that much harder, but it was necessary - I was not going to reward bad behavior.

How else is a child supposed to learn proper behavior? We came home - she had to sit in her room for 20 minutes. Much later I had a huge conversation about proper behavior, what would happen if they misbehaved and what would happen if they were good. They were both little angels this time - different children.

Basically if they are loud or acting inappropriately in a restaurant - you remove them. Simple solution for all.

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Linkat wrote:

[...] How else is a child supposed to learn proper behavior? We came home - she had to sit in her room for 20 minutes. Much later I had a huge conversation about proper behavior, what would happen if they misbehaved and what would happen if they were good. They were both little angels this time - different children.

Basically if they are loud or acting inappropriately in a restaurant - you remove them. Simple solution for all.

Yes, I agree. It may be a bit of a pain for the parent, but in the end, you save yourselves many headaches.

Our family, for example:
My wife and I adopted a special needs child at 5 1/2 years old who was mentally-challenged. There was a time where she had outrageous behaviour in public places and every time it occurred, we would deal with it swiftly and appropriately, mainly by leaving the scene. After a while, when we said that if you act up, we're gone, the behaviours pretty much changed or greatly became modified so that it could be dealt with without much reprocussions. So, if we could do this with a child like we had, I know it is possible to do it with a child who has not got extra problems. It just requires the will to do so by the parent.

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Reyn, linkat: I agree with both of you - don't reward the bad behaviour.

I was very lucky in not having temper trantrum kids; however, if they ever tried to act up, they were told that next time we went out, THEY were staying home (one or both) with a babysitter. That way, they don't ruin your time, just theirs.

There's way too much emphasis put on kids these days. They are part of the family, not the whole thing. Everyone has a place in this universe and some kids today are being raised that they are at the top... it's getting awfully crowded up there.

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Mame wrote:

[...] There's way too much emphasis put on kids these days. They are part of the family, not the whole thing. Everyone has a place in this universe and some kids today are being raised that they are at the top... it's getting awfully crowded up there.

Wow, that is well put! Thanks for that.

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I didn't see this story first time around. I'm frankly appalled. Do such parents allow their children to behave that way at home? Where and when and from whom do they expect their children to learn to behave in a socially acceptable manner in public?

This should be referred to as the story of the shop owner who expects parents to behave as responsible adults--never mind the children.

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I do not have kids so maybe some would say that I have no place to make comments about raising children.

Well to them I say poo on you.

I was a child once and know what my mother and father did to keep me a well behaved kid. It is not impossible while, yes, it may be difficult in the extreme at any given moment. I agree with others, as a last resort you should remove yourself and the misbehaving child from the vicinity. I know this is not always convenient, but you should have known and anticipated that likely-hood when you decided to have the child.

With out getting into the whole Parents Vs. DINK war, everyone has the right to relax and enjoy time out at theaters and restaurants. Parents may be able to shield out the overly loud voices of their children but others cannot. There is not a single person (parent or not) that doesn't understand that kids will be kids and that they may not even realize that they are being loud. That is where the parent should step in and instruct the child.

I think the biggest problem is what Mame brought up. Parents are raising their kids in the belief that the whole world revolves around them and that everything is there for their amusement alone. Unfortunately some never lose this sense of entitlement and go on to have kids of thir own and then you have an even worse problem. Parents with unruly children that get highly offended and defensive when someone else trys to instruct behavior - even from an authority figure such as teachers.

Sorry about the rant but I plan to have children with my husband someday and I am not looking forward to trying to raise my child with some manners and decorum when I know they will be surrounded by other children who have never had such instruction.

Actually a good example was just raised where I am. I am at my local public library and there were a great many children screaming and running around. An elderly gentleman came up to the counter and asked if the librarian (found out later the library manager) if this was a library or a day care. He asked that she do something. The librarian just shrugged and said that preschool just got out and that is why the kids were probably here and then went back to talking to the lady beside her.

Well the man got pretty upset and said that if they were going to allow this kind of behavior then they should take down that the library sign and put up a daycare sign and he proceeded to complain. The childrens guardian apparently heard all of this (frankly I think the whole building did) and came out of the wood work to hush the children and get them to sit and read or play quietly.

Now while the man may have gone a little far on the angry outburst I would have to totally agree with him. Other people were muttering under their breath that the man should just shut up and leave but I ask you why? He came to the library to read or do research. The children were unsupervised and they really were being unruly, especially for a library. It is obvious that they do know how to behave here because they are now doing so, thanks to the mother finally stepping in.

I know that parents are used to the loud voices and running about, but there is a time and place. Some parents just really need to set boundaries and pay attention to when those boundaries are being crossed.

All of you parents who do do this I applaud. It will serve you so much better in the long run and it will serve your children even more.

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Aldistar wrote:

[...] Parents are raising their kids in the belief that the whole world revolves around them and that everything is there for their amusement alone. Unfortunately some never lose this sense of entitlement and go on to have kids of thir own and then you have an even worse problem. Parents with unruly children that get highly offended and defensive when someone else trys to instruct behavior - even from an authority figure such as teachers. [...]

[...] Some parents just really need to set boundaries and pay attention to when those boundaries are being crossed. [...]

Thank you for your comments. They are spot on, in my opinion.

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Restaurant Takes On Rowdy Kids

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