Homosexuality v. Christianity -- A FEW QUESTIONS:

Biteh!

Dos gefelt mir

Yes, some of the disciples preached that what you do is as important as what you believe:

Ps 62:12 "For you render to each one according to his works."
Jer 17:10 "I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings."
Mt 16:27 "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works."
Mt 19:17 "If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
Lk 10:26-28 "He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live."
Jn 5:29 "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
Rom 2:6, 13 "Who 'will render to each one according to his deeds'. For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified."
2Cor 5:10 "For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."
2 Cor 11:15 "Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works."
Jas 2:14 "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?"
Jas 2:17 "Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."
Jas 2:21-25 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
1Pet 1:17 "The Father, who without pariality judges according to each one's work."
1 John 5:2-4 "This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world."
Galatians 5:19-21 "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."

Of course, you will also find quotes from Paul in the Bible that proclaim that faith alone is sufficient. Paul and Jesus weren't on the same page.



No, it is not possible according to the OT. See my earlier post.

Hmmm - I have always had a grudge against Paul! (Always felt Saul suited him better!)

Au, I think, said: "Frank
Location, location. How can we who sit fat, dumb, happy and secure in the US hope to understand how it feels? To be in danger of being blown to bits every time we venture out. To be called to do battle on a continuing basis and also to have spent years battling the same enemy.
Taking all those factors in consideration would you have a kind word for that enemy or perhaps would you feel the same way as Steissd
As the saying goes walk a mile in my shoes"

I think this raises a very interesting point - which Frank has, in fact, addressed briefly in a recent post - but for some reason I feel the need to comment, too.

I love the walk a mile in my shoes thing, because I actually think empathy and compassion are supremely important virtues.

I do have enormous sympathy for the Israeli position, and for the ongoing trauma they face from terrorism.

I also have great sympathy for the Palestinian experience.

I make no claim to understand, in any real way, either side's feelings - you would have to walk more than a mile, in both sets of shoes, I think, to do so.

However, I do not think empathy is meant to blind us to the negative effects of such circumstances - one of which, on both sides, is bigotry.

I do not think that, however dumb and fat and safe I am, naming that bigotry - on either side - is wrong - nor does it necessarily imply a lack of understanding and sympathy (insofar as that is possible for an outsider) for the reasons that bigotry came to be, or for the person expressing it.

dlowan
Bigotry has nothing to do with it. Frank could not understand why Steissd felt the way he did. My comment after all was said and done was walk a mile in his shoes. As for the Palestinians I have no doubt that their shoes are no more comfortable

Au -- At no point did I say that I could not understand why Steissd feels the way he does. In fact, if I were to comment on how he (or any Israeli) feels -- I would say I understand the feelings all too well.

But I also would say that I understand the feelings of the Palestinians very, very well also.

BIGOTRY HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH IT!!!!

In any case, the hatreds of both sides -- and the unwillingness of both sides to truly see the position of the other side -- indicates to me that they just never will get along together -- and no matter how the "two states" thing is finally resolved, the situation in the Middle East will never be appreciable better for Israelis or Palestinians than they are right now.

A THOUSAND YEARS FROM NOW THEY WILL STILL BE AT EACH OTHERS THROATS -- and the Palestinians will be arguing that it is the Israelis fault and the Israelis will be arguing that it is the Palestinians fault -- AND THEY WILL BOTH BE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.

Second Frank on that one.

Frank
Your statement reminds me of the scene in fiddler on the roof where two men are presenting their argument to the Rabbi. After each man pleads his case the Rabbi says you are right. Can they both be right and yet disagree? Of course. Regardless they both [Israel/ Palestinians]must compromise if they are to live together in this small and ever shrinking world and I have little doubt that eventually they will.

A quibble, Frank -- You say "A THOUSAND YEARS FROM NOW THEY WILL STILL BE AT EACH OTHERS THROATS -- and the Palestinians will be arguing that it is the Israelis fault and the Israelis will be arguing that it is the Palestinians fault -- AND THEY WILL BOTH BE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT." I kind of agree. Where I disagree is that each will have a valid point of view but to be absolutely correct, each would have to accept half the blame. If each would do that now, things would change significantly. The wronger they get, the more each shrieks blame at the other.

With special reference to that part about:



Well, au, for the peace and well-being of the people living in the middle east, I HOPE YOU ARE RIGHT.

And for the peace and well-being of all the other people on this planet who will be effected by the great world-wide war I suspect may result from all this petty, endless squabbling going on over there -- I HOPE YOU ARE RIGHT.

But can you share with the group the kinds of things that are happening that cause you to suppose that there "...is little doubt that eventually they will..."...

...reason together;

...accept partial responsibility (as Tatarin points out, a necessary factor);

...and get along?

Sumthin' to ponder; Pontius Pilate was the head of the Roman Peacekeeping Force brought in to keep the parties from each other's throats a couple thousand years ago. The problem has pretty deep roots.

What does the topic have in common with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Gays are not majority among either Israelis or our enemies. Sometimes I regret for having frankly mentioned my nationality in profile, every statement of mine is being related to from standpoint of this regional feud.
My main idea was that Islam was much more hostile toward individual freedoms than Christianity. Whereas Christian activists try hard to prevent granting to gay unions status of families, Muslims merely execute and/or imprison gays, even in such a moderate country as Egypt. And, IMO, people that are concerned with gay rights, should give much more importance to institutionalized murder and torture, than to limitations in certain family-related rights.
By the way, if Israeli-Palestinian relationships cannot be avoided, I would like to provide an interesting fact: Palestinian gay men do their best to escape to Israel, because if their proclivities are revealed by either their own families, or by the religious fanatics from Hamas, they will be lynched.

Frank
Because hope springs eternal. Throught the centuries enemies have become friends and friends have become enemies. That is the way it has always been. Why should this be any different?

Au contraire, Steissd. I believe you may be given (certainly by me) much more latitude in expressing beliefs which can be considered intolerant and intolerable simply because you are living in the middle of the situation.

Tartarin, does this mean that you consider my statements about gays (referring to the very topic of the discussion) arrested and even executed in the Islamic world being false, since I have reasons to be biased toward Islam, and you believe that the only places where the gays have serious problems with their sexual orientation are countries of the Christian cultural and ethical heritage?

Of course not. Nor do I think the two religions and cultures should be set against each other. Each has its glories and its flaws. I am really, really tired of the either/or argument. Life isn't like that. Things have been rotten and tough for gays in most cultures at one time or another, as they have been for child laborers, refugees, and people not of the predominant culture. Stinks, but it stinks everywhere. It's up to each people to make sure citizens and neighbors are treated fairly. You'd be safe in assuming that I wouldn't be your best source for temperate views of Christianity; nor would I turn to you for information about and judgments of Islam.

Maybe. But the magnitude of foul smell, and its effect on human life differs. A Christian man, Michael Savage insulted the gay listener, this is unpleasant, but it can be survived, the victim may just consider Mr. Savage being a bigot and ignore his opinion; Afghan (prior to the U.S. military campaign) and Iranian religious courts sentenced gays to death, this can hardly be survived, and it cannot be ignored either.

What are you saying here, Steissd?

Islam apparently thinks homosexual conduct is a crime punishable by death -- and they do it.

Christianity thinks homosexual conduct is a crime punishable by death -- and they refrain from it.

So are you saying that Christians are hypocrites -- and Islamics are more attentive to what their god decrees?

That seems to be the case.





Ahhh...so you are saying that the Jews are also hypocrites. Their god decrees that the penalty for homosexual conduct should be death -- and yet they do not do it.

Come on Frank! I'll take a little hypocrisy over lynching gays any day.