Homosexuality v. Christianity -- A FEW QUESTIONS:

I would've been mortified if all DH's stuff had been taken out of circulation.

Sons and Lovers is one of me all-time favs.

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Frank, we do think alike after all Very Happy

I would say though, that like the gay people who wish to be Christian as well, let people revise and interperet the bible, heck, rewrite the thing even, rather than ban it. It's been a free-for-all for a while now anyway. Those wacky Mormons come to mind, among others....

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As I said in Sunday School, directly preceding my Black-Ball status at same, if homosexuality is considered a sin--and we all sin--and we want to bar the homosexuals from church on the basis that they sin-- we should all go home and leave church to those who don't sin.

Half of them think I'm a homosexual, now--26 year marriage and no sexual activity with women, notwithstanding...

Self-righteous pissers.

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I'm not for book burning -- but I do think the world would be much better off if the Bible had never seen the light of day.

Of course, it could be argued that another holy book would probably have taken hold -- and it might have been even worse.

Cav, we are eye to eye on plenty. Always glad to see your posts.

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major segue, at the La Fonda Hotel in Taos New Mexico, just south of where D.H.L lived (oft times with Huxley) there is on exhibit the only, as far as I know, painting by Lawrence. Its perhaps the worst example of "art" i have ever seen in my life. Wink

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I was just thinking, the bible was an ongoing project to codify moral law, and was used as a tool of conversion, a highly successful one. Most of the 'heathens' preserved an oral tradition to send out the same message. A LOT of the bible was improvised on the fly, to make conversions easier, then later written into the new code to make things legit. Bible vs. oral tradition....what scares you more, a "Thou shalt not" from a book, or an "I brought you into this world, I can take you out" from mom...hmm...

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Re: Homosexuality v. Christianity -- A FEW QUESTIONS:

Frank Apisa wrote:

At Leviticus 20:13 -- the god of the Bible says to Moses:

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."

QUESTION:

Should Christians be killing known homosexuals?

Should Christians, at very least, be lobbying for laws making homosexual conduct a capital offense?

If a Christian kills a homosexual -- should other Christians look down on the killer-- or should they hold him in high esteem for his devotion to the dictates of his God?

As for Christians who expressing sympathy, empathy, understanding, or tolerance for homosexuals and homosexual conduct -- in other words, Christians who defy the expressed orders of their God -- should they be ostracized or otherwise soundly condemned by their fellow Christians?

i think your questions apply more to the jews. christians explain away all of this by simply stating that jesus rid the world of the need to obey mosaic law. there are dozens of ridiculous laws in the old testament (you can't eat lobster or pork, you can't shave your sideburns, you have to sacrifice a bird after your period, etc...). these were the laws given to moses so that the israelites may be saved. with jesus it is no longer necessary. it started with the debate at the council of jerusalem in the book of acts over circumcision. it was concluded that it was not necessary though jewish law requires it. so christians can eat pork and don't need to kill sodomites.

it should also be made clear that homosexuality isn't condemned. only sodomy or homosexual sex.

should christians be fighting to legistate it? that's a whole other debate over the christian understanding of separation of church and state. but for the most part christians were against the recent supreme court ruling on anti-sodomy laws.

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I seem to recall Moses only being a small part of the Old Testament, and a few wacky laws in the New Testament. Frank? What do you think? Should we Jews, who have been historically liberal since Moses' time, return to whacking homos? Obviously, this is not a Christian issue...

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I love the Bible (though miss Thomas). But I take it as any document produced by a series of committees over a period of many years, a document which has been translated, edited according to contemporary fashion during each age. I imagine that if the many authors to which the Bible (Old and New) is attributed could be brought back and handed a copy of their attrribution, they'd have fifty fits.

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What do you think? Are the bibles, old and new testaments fiction or non fiction? Question

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Re: Homosexuality v. Christianity -- A FEW QUESTIONS:

ye110man wrote:

i think your questions apply more to the jews. christians explain away all of this by simply stating that jesus rid the world of the need to obey mosaic law.

"Simply stating" it -- doesn't necessarily make it so.

Jesus certainly should have a say in whether or not he came to rid the world of the need to obey mosaic law. And here is what he had to say on the issue:

Matthew 5: 17ff

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you: UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THE SMALLEST PART OF A LETTER, SHALL BE DONE AWAY WITH UNTIL IT ALL COME TRUE."

So if this fellow Jesus is to be believed -- which Christians say should be the case -- Jesus did not come to rid the world of the need to obey those laws -- and they should still be obeyed.

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cavfancier wrote:

I seem to recall Moses only being a small part of the Old Testament, and a few wacky laws in the New Testament. Frank?

Cav, I think Moses was a great deal more than just a small part of the Old Testament. He -- and the information he got from the god of the Bible -- make up almost 100% of the books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

In fact, I cannot think of any law that Moses was not involved in.

Quote:

What do you think? Should we Jews, who have been historically liberal since Moses' time, return to whacking homos? Obviously, this is not a Christian issue...

No! Emphatically no!

I think you Jews -- and the Christians -- should simply disregard anything and everything the god of the Bible says -- and build your ethics and moral precepts on other foundations.

I think any objective look at the Old Testament -- and the god of that book -- has to conclude that the Old Testament is a history of the early Hebrew people intersperced with a mythology built around a fictional god who pretty much said and decreed what the people who invented him wanted him to say and decree.

That notion, in fact, is the purpose of this thread.

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Sheesh, Frank, you're on a roll this morning! Nice work. Apt quote from Matthew. Really nice.

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Hey Frank, my post was, shall we say a 'tad' sarcastic. Also, Moses still only gets 2 out of 5 books, not exactly a passing grade. Wink

'Vengeful God' gets the bulk, I think.

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Oh, and I agree with your interperatation of the Old Testament. Most of the interesting stuff in Judaism is actually in the other texts, and the interperetations of the scripture. Did you know locusts were kosher?

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Give me a recipe, quick, Cav! I won't need to go grocery shopping for the rest of the summer!

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The Old Testament was written by a bunch of wandering scribes taking down verbal accounts of mythology passed off as history and likely playing editor with that. Were they guided by the hand of God? Only if they felt Him paddling them on the ass. Which seems to have filtered down to some behaviour in the modern church.

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When we visited Jordan last year, we visited Mount Nebo, where it is claimed Moses spent his last days. If the OT is fiction, is the claim about Moses also fiction - or the other way around? c.i.

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Here's a photo of the memorial to Moses at Mt Nebo, Jordan. c.i.

http://sc.groups.msn.com/tn/38/51/littlekb/28/34a.jpg

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There's no historical record that Moses ever existed.

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Homosexuality v. Christianity -- A FEW QUESTIONS:

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