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Vermont Votes to Impeach Bush/Cheney

 
 
rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Mar, 2007 11:54 pm
Weapons of mass destruction. The U.N.inspectors told him there weren't any.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Mar, 2007 06:04 am
rabel22 wrote:
Weapons of mass destruction. The U.N.inspectors told him there weren't any.

They did not tell him conclusively that there weren't any. They simply failed to find any more violations after Saddam Hussein had had 12 years to figure out how to hide them well. The president, I, and millions of other people, including numerous Democratic congressmen, thought that he probably had simply gotten really good at hiding them. Hussein could have provided actual proof of the dismantling of development programs, but chose not to. The president acted to prevent a likely deadly threat to the world a few years down the road. Some lie.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Mar, 2007 07:26 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
You'd like him to have been lying,


No, I don't. I don't want to be impolite, but apparently you completely and utterly failed to understand what I wrote.


Brandon9000 wrote:
but the fact is that he simply believed something different from you.


He most certainly did.


Brandon9000 wrote:
You disagree with me?


No, I don't. You understand the words "I agree with Brandon", do you? But I can understand that you wanted to be sure about this point, so, no, I do not disagree with you.


Brandon9000 wrote:
Give one example of a lie President Bush told about the war in Iraq. Just one. You don't have to prove it's a lie, just make an argument that it's likely to have been a lie.


I'm not going to. My whole point was that we shouldn't accuse him of lying when it's too difficult or maybe even impossible to prove.


Brandon9000 wrote:
I submit that he told the truth as he understood it.


I understand that this is your belief, and you state it with a lot of certainty. I therefore ask you to give one example of a statement President Bush made about the war in Iraq that he actually believed in. Just one. Give me a Bush statement, and prove that he actually believed in what he said.


Brandon9000 wrote:
Indeed the opinions that he expressed to justify the invasion were held by millions and millions of people.


And millions and millions of people relied on what they were told by the administration. If I were you, I really wouldn't use this point if you want to show that President Bush Has Always Been Telling The Truth.

See, millions and millions of people apparently believe that Bush was behind 9/11. Do you think that's the truth, just because so many people believe it?
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Mar, 2007 07:37 am
Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Mar, 2007 07:51 am
old europe wrote:
...
Brandon9000 wrote:
I submit that he told the truth as he understood it.


I understand that this is your belief, and you state it with a lot of certainty. I therefore ask you to give one example of a statement President Bush made about the war in Iraq that he actually believed in. Just one. Give me a Bush statement, and prove that he actually believed in what he said.

I didn't ask you for proof. I asked you for a plausibility argument. Intent is usually impossible to prove, which is why I didn't ask you to prove it. The statement by president Bush which I will give as an example is that there are probably WMD and development programs in Iraq.

My plausibility argument that Mr. Bush believed it to be true is as follows:

1. He said it consistently from day one to the invasion
2. Hussein had had these things at one time, had been caught lying to conceal them, had been caught obstructing inspectors, and could have furnished very convincing evidence that these things were dismantled (e.g. video of their destruction) yet mysteriously chose not to.

These facts make it perfectly plausible that the president believed what he was saying, and, indeed, I believed this very same thing long before Mr. Bush came along. Now, you furnish one single example of something you believe to have been a lie and make the same sort of argument that there is reason to suspect that it was a lie.

old europe wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Indeed the opinions that he expressed to justify the invasion were held by millions and millions of people.


And millions and millions of people relied on what they were told by the administration. If I were you, I really wouldn't use this point if you want to show that President Bush Has Always Been Telling The Truth.

See, millions and millions of people apparently believe that Bush was behind 9/11. Do you think that's the truth, just because so many people believe it?

No, my point is that if someone claims to believe something that lots of other people believe, it is perfectly plausible that the person does believe it.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Mar, 2007 10:08 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
I didn't ask you for proof. I asked you for a plausibility argument. Intent is usually impossible to prove, which is why I didn't ask you to prove it.


You asked for a plausibility argument for a case I didn't make. I don't know how I can make myself any clearer. I completely agree with you, Brandon, that we shouldn't go around and say "Bush has been lying".


Brandon9000 wrote:
The statement by president Bush which I will give as an example is that there are probably WMD and development programs in Iraq.

My plausibility argument that Mr. Bush believed it to be true is as follows:

1. He said it consistently from day one to the invasion


Good point. I agree with you, that makes it plausible that Bush believed in the existence of WMD.

Unfortunately, it also makes it just as plausible that the WMD issue was forwarded by the government, in spite of better knowledge, in order to mislead the United States into a war with Iraq.

As long as we don't have a way of determining which one of these options is true, I will not pick one over the other.


Brandon9000 wrote:
2. Hussein had had these things at one time, had been caught lying to conceal them, had been caught obstructing inspectors, and could have furnished very convincing evidence that these things were dismantled (e.g. video of their destruction) yet mysteriously chose not to.

These facts make it perfectly plausible that the president believed what he was saying, and, indeed, I believed this very same thing long before Mr. Bush came along. Now, you furnish one single example of something you believe to have been a lie and make the same sort of argument that there is reason to suspect that it was a lie.


Why should I do this? I wasn't making the argument that Bush has been lying, and should be impeached for that. In fact, I think there are several valid reasons to impeach Bush without accusing him of lying.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Mar, 2007 02:22 pm
cjhsa wrote:
Sorry anton, we don't answer to the U.N., and never will. Nor do we answer to Vermont. What a bunch of looney pricks. They just lost any tourist dollar I might spend there.


I'm sure there are still plenty of folks in Vt who disagree with the resolutions. They were probably too busy out shooting things to attend the town meetings and vote against them.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2007 06:36 am
That's actually a very interesting statement JPB. It seems that politico types like to to that - scheduled votes unexpectedly when most of those who might oppose them are unavailable. In this case it probably has more to do with simply not wanted to go out in the cold more than anything, but point made, and taken.
0 Replies
 
 

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