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THE BRITISH THREAD II

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Apr, 2013 05:16 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
I'm not quite sure what makes for a state funeral verses otherwise, but what I'm hearing is that it will not be a "state funeral" but a "private funeral with full military honors".


The latest I have seen is a "ceremonial" funeral with "military honours". Not full military honours.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Tue 9 Apr, 2013 05:24 am
@spendius,
Oralboy is the most repulsive, and dimwitted, member of A2K by a long chalk. He would support Thatcher, he's a fascist who has no regard for human rights.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Apr, 2013 06:05 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

I'm not quite sure what makes for a state funeral verses otherwise, but what I'm hearing is that it will not be a "state funeral" but a "private funeral with full military honors".
It will be "ceremonial funeral", the level granted to the Queen Mother and Lady Diana, with full military honours.

Lady Thatcher specifically did not want a full state funeral, her spokesman Lord Bell said ... (A state funeral requires a motion or vote in Parliament.)
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 9 Apr, 2013 08:07 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
A state funeral requires a motion or vote in Parliament.


I was curious enough to look up the difference beyond what is required to authorize it. It looks like there is only a minor difference:

Quote:
in a state funeral, the gun carriage bearing the coffin is drawn by sailors from the Royal Navy rather than horses
Quote:
a ceremonial funeral, which differs only in the fact that the gun carriage bearing the coffin is drawn by horses, as opposed to sailors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_funerals_in_the_United_Kingdom
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 9 Apr, 2013 08:13 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:
The latest I have seen is a "ceremonial" funeral with "military honours". Not full military honours.


I couldn't tell you the difference between military honors and full military honors, but I've been hearing the word "full".

It looks like the only difference between this and a "pure" state funeral is that the coffin will be pulled by horses instead of being pulled by military personnel.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Apr, 2013 08:25 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
Lady Thatcher was instrumental in vetoing the idea of a state funeral because she feared it would provoke a divisive debate in parliament, which would have to approve the funding, according to Whitehall sources.
Edited: all sources say that the main difference is the approval by Parliament. Minor differences are that the gun carriage with coffin is drawn by sailors from the Royal Navy instead of horses ...
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Apr, 2013 08:41 am
@Walter Hinteler,
The Earl Marshal has responsibility for the organisation of State funerals and the monarch's coronation in Westminster Abbey.

The current Earl Marshal is Edward Fitzalan-Howard, 18th Duke of Norfolk, who inherited the position in 2002.

If he is not involved then there is no State funeral.

That last State funeral for a private citizen was that of The Rt Hon Sir Winston Churchill in 1965 and the last Royal State funeral was that of The Queen's father, George VI, in 1952.

Here is a list of State funerals for notable people--


Sir Philip Sidney (1586)
Admiral Robert Blake (1657)
Sir Isaac Newton (1727)[3]
The Viscount Nelson (1806)
The Duke of Wellington (1852)
The Viscount Palmerston (1865)
Lord Napier of Magdala (1890)
The Rt Hon William Gladstone (1898)
The Earl Roberts of Kandahar (1914)
The Earl Haig (1928)
The Lord Carson (1935)
The Rt Hon Sir Winston Churchill (1965).
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Apr, 2013 08:44 am
@spendius,
How ridiculous would that list look if the silly old bat's name was on it.

I imagine it would cause the other gentlemen to whirl in their graves.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Tue 9 Apr, 2013 08:49 am
@spendius,
On youtube if you type in Elvis Costello, this comes up first.


Quote:
I saw a newspaper picture from the political campaign
A woman was kissing a child, who was obviously in pain
She spills with compassion, as that young childs
Face in her hands she grips
Can you imagine all that greed and avarice
Coming down on that childs lips

Well I hope I don't die too soon
I pray the lord my soul to save
Oh I'll be a good boy, Im trying so hard to behave
Because there's one thing I know, I'd like to live
Long enough to savour
That's when they finally put you in the ground
Ill stand on your grave and tramp the dirt down

When england was the whore of the world
Margaret was her madam
And the future looked as bright and as clear as
The black tarmacadam
Well I hope that she sleeps well at night, isnt
Haunted by every tiny detail
Cos when she held that lovely face in her hands
All she thought of was betrayal

And now the cynical ones say that it all ends the same in the long run
Try telling that to the desperate father who just squeezed the life from his only son
And how it's only voices in your head and dreams you never dreamt
Try telling him the subtle difference between justice and contempt
Try telling me she isn't angry with this pitiful discontent
When they flaunt it in your face as you line up for punishment
And then expect you to say thank you straighten up, look proud and pleased
Because youve only got the symptoms, you haven't got the whole disease
Just like a schoolboy, whose heads like a tin-can
Filled up with dreams then poured down the drain
Try telling that to the boys on both sides, being blown to bits or beaten and maimed
Who takes all the glory and none of the shame

Well I hope you live long now, I pray the lord your soul to keep
I think I'll be going before we fold our arms and start to weep
I never thought for a moment that human life could be so cheap
Cos when they finally put you in the ground
They'll stand there laughing and tramp the dirt down
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Apr, 2013 08:50 am
@spendius,
Now, this is the "official opinion":

Quote:
State
A state funeral is defined by the Royal Encyclopedia as “generally limited to Sovereigns, but may, by order of the reigning monarch and by a vote of Parliament providing the fund, be extended to exceptionally distinguished persons.”1
Examples of people other than monarchs who have been given a state funeral include Sir Isaac Newton, Lord Nelson, the Duke of Wellington, Lord Palmerston and Sir Winston Churchill.
A state funeral is commonly held to differ from a ceremonial funeral in two respects: a parliamentary motion authorises it, and the gun carriage bearing the coffin to the lying in state has, since the funeral of Queen Victoria, been drawn by Royal Navy sailors rather than by horses.
Ceremonial
A ceremonial royal funeral is “for those members of the Royal Family who hold high military rank, for the consort of the Sovereign and heir to the throne”.2 The Queen Mother was given a ceremonial royal funeral, and Princess Diana’s funeral was also a ceremonial rather than state funeral. It has been announced that Baroness Thatcher will have a ceremonial funeral with full military honours at St Paul’s Cathedral on 17 April 2013.3 The coffin will leave Westminster by hearse, but then be transferred to a gun carriage for the final procession to St Paul’s, drawn by the King’s Troop Royal Artillery and met by a guard of honour at the Cathedral. Later, her ashes will be laid beside those of her husband at the Royal Hospital, Chelsea, after a private cremation.

Decision-making process

The process for deciding when a state funeral should be held for a person other than the Sovereign is relatively unclear, not least since it happens so rarely and at long historical intervals. There is no official process set out in public, but the Sovereign, Prime Minister, and Parliament have been involved in the past.
... ... ....
Source: Library House of Commons
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Apr, 2013 08:53 am
@spendius,
It is a mark of an inadequate education to even raise, or mention, the idea of a State funeral with full military honours for the Handbagger, unless, of course, Handbagging is now considered to be supremely meritorious. (Which I sometimes think might well be the case.)
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 9 Apr, 2013 10:06 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
all sources say that the main difference is the approval by Parliament. Minor differences are that the gun carriage with coffin is drawn by sailors from the Royal Navy instead of horses ...


Approval by Parliament is probably the biggest difference overall, but it is ultimately a difference in how the funeral is approved, as opposed to a difference in how the funeral is carried out.

To my thinking, the more tangible difference is in how the funeral is carried out (unless "getting the government to approve" is seen as some sort of moral recognition or something).
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 9 Apr, 2013 10:07 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:
Here is a list of State funerals for notable people--

Sir Philip Sidney (1586)
Admiral Robert Blake (1657)
Sir Isaac Newton (1727)[3]
The Viscount Nelson (1806)
The Duke of Wellington (1852)
The Viscount Palmerston (1865)
Lord Napier of Magdala (1890)
The Rt Hon William Gladstone (1898)
The Earl Roberts of Kandahar (1914)
The Earl Haig (1928)
The Lord Carson (1935)
The Rt Hon Sir Winston Churchill (1965).


Is there a list of "ceremonial royal funerals" given to notable people?

It really doesn't sound to me like there is much difference between the two types of funeral.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Apr, 2013 10:40 am
@oralloy,
During the reign of EII is were

Queen Mary, 1953, St. George's Chapel, Windsor Castle
The Earl Mountbatten of Burma, 1979, Westminster Abbey
Diana, Princess of Wales, 1997, Westminster Abbey
Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother, 2002, Westminster Abbey



The Duke of Windsor (formerly Edward VIII), got a "private royal funeral" (which is in between those two) in 1972
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Tue 9 Apr, 2013 11:13 am
This is what Oralboy posted about the grieving relatives of Meredith Kercher, just because they wanted justice for their daughter

Quote:
The Kerchers are bad people. As far as I'm concerned they deserve no empathy, and they'll certainly never get any from me.


http://able2know.org/topic/138895-44#post-4755278

Just so you're in no doubt as to the sort of creature he is.
vonny
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Apr, 2013 12:59 pm
@izzythepush,
I get the picture! Sad!
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Tue 9 Apr, 2013 01:51 pm
@vonny,
Does this ring a bell?
vonny
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Apr, 2013 02:13 pm
@izzythepush,
Brilliant! I have the boxed set of Auf Weidersehen Pet - any Geordie I know was learnt from that! I echo Oz's sentiments!
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Apr, 2013 03:03 pm

Did you miss this bulletin?

"Lady Thatcher, formerly Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, was this morning rushed to Guy's Hospital following a stroke, but was pronounced dead on arrival.

"Her condition was said to be satisfactory."
vonny
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Apr, 2013 03:07 pm
@McTag,
Brilliant! Said more than it meant to!
0 Replies
 
 

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