On no longer using the word "believe!"

Frank, that reminds me of Boris Karloff's "It's almost time for the ceremony".

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Foley wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:

Actually, it is not irrelevant. It is very relevant.

Calling an opinionor a guess, when there is no substantial evidencea "belief"is an attempt to disguise the fact that it is nothing more than an opinionor a guess.

No, it isn't. It only means that in your mind. A belief is when you think something is true, but can't prove it. And opinion is what you think, but can't prove it.

Foley...go play in traffic. You are not equipped for this kind of discussion.

Have you looked at the definitions? You're a moron! You can't see that their is a conotation, but they mean the EXACT SAME THING! Don't you own a thesaurus? Obviously not, if you can't argue against my point other than insulting me.

DICTIONARY
DICTIONARY
DICTIONARY
DICTIONARY
DICTIONARY

See?

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Frank Apisa wrote:

ebrown_p wrote:
Quote:

How often do you see prolonged, intense arguments over an opinion?

LOL. Come on Frank, that is all we do around here.

Most of the prolonged intense arguments over things that have nothing to do with "belief" religious or otherwise.

I refer you to my opening comments which limit this theme to "discussions in the philosophical and religious areas."

For certain we can get into protracted arguments in the political or entertainment forums over "opinions"...but that truly is not what I am talking about. Please take the time to read that opening segment again and you will see that I am making that limitation.

I stand by my point... the long protracted arguments in the philosophy and religion fora are very similar to the long protracted arguments elsewhere.

I re-read your initial posting.

I still find your thesis that eliminating the word "belief" from the lexicon will have any affect on a single religous or philosophical debate to be quite dubious indeed.

Human beings base their identities on very different things. These differences are quite a bit deeper than the meanings of words.

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There is a slight difference between a belief and an opinion.

If I said that it is my opinion that brunettes are more beautiful that blondes, it is understood that this is a subjective evaluation I make for myself.

If I said that I believe that brunettes are more beautiful that blondes, that would imply that this is the case for everyone.

As far as I can tell, this serves to support the claim made in the initial post, even though I am not sure if I agree with that claim yet.

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cyracuz, how is it exactly that you think the words "I believe" make a statement imply that is the case for everyone? That is a personal statement. The person making the statement is taking ownership of the statement by saying "I". It seems to me that it actually releases everyone else from responsibility for what that person believes.

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Because "believe" is usually used about issues that affect everyone. A person who believes in god does not believe that god exists only for him. He believes god exists for me as well, even though I don't believe. That can affect his opinion about me...

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Hmmm. That's interesting. I never thought of it that way. Still I've always felt that saying "I believe" verses "My opinion" was a nice way to excuse someone from my "belief" system. Granting them an out. I believe, but you don't have to or are in no way obligated to. And also, it can go either way I think. If I say "it is my opinion" that can have the exact same effect because if the person you are talking to disagrees with your opinion it could just as easily sway their opinion of you.

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I guess you are right Treya.

Another difference between the disputed words is in application.

An opinion is often an expression of what we think ought to be, while a belief is an expression of what we think is.

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I just saw this thread, Frank. Interesting discussion. There are important distinctions between belief and opinion. I have a book of essays by Karl Popper (a twentieth century epistemologist). I will try to post any relevant quotes.

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What I don't understand is, if they have the exact same meaning, the debate is pointless. And if they have different meanings, then they will be used in different ways, and it winds up being like "I think we should say jog instead of run, because they are slightly different."

If they're different, then they are used for different things, and if they are the same, then the argument is worthless. Either way, there is absolutely no reason to stop saying either of them.

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Foley wrote:

What I don't understand is, if they have the exact same meaning, the debate is pointless. And if they have different meanings, then they will be used in different ways, and it winds up being like "I think we should say jog instead of run, because they are slightly different."

If they're different, then they are used for different things, and if they are the same, then the argument is worthless. Either way, there is absolutely no reason to stop saying either of them.

If you are too ignorant to realize that they often are used in vastly different...and irreconcilable ways...

...chances are you are too ignorant to be in this discussion.

If you are offering an opinioncall it an opinion.

If you are offering an estimatecall it an estimate.

If you are offering a blind, unsubstantiated guess.call it a blind, unsubstantiated guess.

Do you honestly think that a person saying "I believe there is a God" or "I believe there are no gods"which are nothing more than blind, unsubstantiated guessesis truly saying "It is my blind, unsubstantiated guess that there is a God" or "It is my blind, unsubstantiated guess that no gods exist."

Or do you think it more likely that the folks peddling that bullshyt are trying to disguise the fact that they are making a blind, unsubstantiated guess?

Be careful with you answer, Foley, because what you respond will go a long way toward determining if you are too ignorant to be in this discussion.

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Frank:

Why do you restrict your opinion of "belief" to only religion and philosophy?

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Frank, I have shown you that they mean the exact same thing. You claim that they are completely different and that I am ignorant and can't argue with you. Why? If I'm so stupid, then why not rebuke my pathetic arguments?

They mean the same thing. There is a slightly different conotation, I'll concede, but that simply means the word will be used in slightly different context. There is no reason to stop saying "I believe in God" and start saying "My opinion is that there is a God".

"I believe in God" means that you think that their is one true God.

"My opinion is that there is a God" means that you think there is a God.

If the words mean different things, why replace one with another? And if they are the same, then why care which people say?

And please, Frank, actually counter my points rather than saying "You are so ignorant I will conviniently not respond."

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Or do you think it more likely that the folks peddling that bullshyt are trying to disguise the fact that they are making a blind, unsubstantiated guess?

Be careful with you answer, Foley, because what you respond will go a long way toward determining if you are too ignorant to be in this discussion.

Frank, when you say "believe", it can mean that. But you don't always use the word believe that way. You assume everyone who uses the word is an ignorant bafoon (and there may be such people, but not everyone is)

When I say, "I believe you are wrong," I mean precisely the same thing as "It is my opinion you are wrong".

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Foley wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Or do you think it more likely that the folks peddling that bullshyt are trying to disguise the fact that they are making a blind, unsubstantiated guess?

Be careful with you answer, Foley, because what you respond will go a long way toward determining if you are too ignorant to be in this discussion.

Frank, when you say "believe", it can mean that. But you don't always use the word believe that way. You assume everyone who uses the word is an ignorant bafoon (and there may be such people, but not everyone is)

When I say, "I believe you are wrong," I mean precisely the same thing as "It is my opinion you are wrong".

Well...if you had any brains (and I am not accusing you of having any)...you will see that I am talking about the use of the words "believe" and "belief" in a religion and philosophy setting. That has been discussed at length...and I really do not give a shyt that "I believe you are wrong" and "It is my opinion you are wrong" are substantively the same.

Try to open your mind...if you have one...and deal with what is being discussed!

What makes you...even if you are not the brightest bulb on the tree...suspect that someone saying "I believe there is a God" would be willing to accept "It is my blind, unsubstantiated guess that there is a God" AS PHUKING IDENTICAL?????????????????

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Frank Apisa wrote:

What makes you...even if you are not the brightest bulb on the tree...suspect that someone saying "I believe there is a God" would be willing to accept "It is my blind, unsubstantiated guess that there is a God" AS PHUKING IDENTICAL?????????????????

You misunderstand. I say that believe does not mean "a blind, unsubstantiated guess". That is your rude term to put it in. A belief means that that is what you think, period, regardless of anything that might suggest otherwise- but that doesn't mean you don't have anything on your side either, otherwise we wouldn't even have a religious debate board, would we?

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Foley wrote:

You assume everyone who uses the word is an ignorant bafoon (and there may be such people, but not everyone is)

I quote myself for emphasis. You are putting everyone who uses the word into one category, which is the basis for your argument. There are plenty of morons who will believe whatever they have been told and never give, no matter what. (This is different from my previous definition of believe in that it can never change.)

And in a religious philosophical sense? You are saying this only because you have no "beliefs" by your definition- ie you are completely atheist, so you attack the very words that religious people use?

When I say, "I believe in an circle of life that is always in perfect harmony, an essence of everything that exists, that the universe is one entity", I am not saying that I think so without anything to support myself.

A better definition for believe, I think, is that you can't really prove your side to other people.

I have been a Christian, I have read about Hinduism, about Buddhism, about Islam, looked into complete Atheism- and I have come to my own conclusions about the universe. I did not reach my conclusion without any substance- I looked at the other viewpoints and came up with an idea. But I can't convince you it is right- that is what makes it a belief.

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Foley wrote:

Foley wrote:
You assume everyone who uses the word is an ignorant bafoon (and there may be such people, but not everyone is)

I quote myself for emphasis. You are putting everyone who uses the word into one category, which is the basis for your argument. There are plenty of morons who will believe whatever they have been told and never give, no matter what. (This is different from my previous definition of believe in that it can never change.)

And in a religious philosophical sense? You are saying this only because you have no "beliefs" by your definition- ie you are completely atheist, so you attack the very words that religious people use?

When I say, "I believe in an circle of life that is always in perfect harmony, an essence of everything that exists, that the universe is one entity", I am not saying that I think so without anything to support myself.

A better definition for believe, I think, is that you can't really prove your side to other people.

I have been a Christian, I have read about Hinduism, about Buddhism, about Islam, looked into complete Atheism- and I have come to my own conclusions about the universe. I did not reach my conclusion without any substance- I looked at the other viewpoints and came up with an idea. But I can't convince you it is right- that is what makes it a belief.

I'm sorry to have to inform you of this, Foley...but you simply lack the intellectual wherewithal to deal with a discussion of this kind. Go check out the movie or television debates. They are probably much closer to what you should be attempting.

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Frank, I don't get you. Why don't you actually reply rather than saying:

Quote:

Oh yeah? Well you're stupid!

So explain why I'm wrong!

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Foley wrote:

Frank, I don't get you. Why don't you actually reply rather than saying:

Quote:
Oh yeah? Well you're stupid!

So explain why I'm wrong!

Because you are too stupid to understand the reasoning I have already wasted time offering.

Wake the phuk up!

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On no longer using the word "believe!"

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