3
   

On no longer using the word "believe!"

 
 
George
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Feb, 2007 03:24 pm
I'm having a heckuva time setting "I have an option that there is one God"
to Gregorian Chant.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Feb, 2007 03:33 pm
Frank, how about "That's unbelievable!"
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Feb, 2007 03:41 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
Tell me another way to say this statement...

Quote:

I believe that slavery is morally wrong.


It is my opinion that slavery is wrong!
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Feb, 2007 03:43 pm
Foley wrote:
Quote:
It is my opinion that slavery is morally wrong.


However, they mean the exact same thing- so the debate has no real point. It is just a word, and if you think less of people for using it, then you are simply a fool.


If you are too thick headed to understand the difference between using a words like "I think..." or "It is my opinion..." as opposed to "I believe..." then it is you, Foley, who is the fool.

Open your phukin' eyes and look at the goddam thing.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Feb, 2007 03:49 pm
Sorry Frank,

You are losing us.

The fact is that there are some things on which each of us base our lives that are not based on facts. Whether you call these things "beliefs" or "opinions" is irrelevant.

To me the secret is to clearly separate the fact-based mathematical/scientific/reason-based parts of our identities from the non-fact based philosophical/moral parts.

Denying that there are parts of your identity that can not be based on mathematical reasoning or facts is, in my opinion, folly.
0 Replies
 
Foley
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Feb, 2007 03:52 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
If you are too thick headed to understand the difference between using a words like "I think..." or "It is my opinion..." as opposed to "I believe..." then it is you, Foley, who is the fool.

Open your phukin' eyes and look at the goddam thing.


Definition:
to believe-to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so.

opinion-a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

Let's have a closer look:
Quote:

to believe
...without absolute proof that one is right...
opinion
...insufficient to produce complete certainty...


Online Dictionary

Oops! You're retarded!
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Feb, 2007 03:56 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
Foley wrote:
Quote:
It is my opinion that slavery is morally wrong.


However, they mean the exact same thing- so the debate has no real point. It is just a word, and if you think less of people for using it, then you are simply a fool.


If you are too thick headed to understand the difference between using a words like "I think..." or "It is my opinion..." as opposed to "I believe..." then it is you, Foley, who is the fool.

Open your phukin' eyes and look at the goddam thing.


You figured it out, Frank. The words "I believe" mean something different.

Good job.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Feb, 2007 03:59 pm
Substitute "it is my opinion" in the following sentence, and tell me that you think it remains unchanged:

"I believe in God, the Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord..."
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Feb, 2007 04:08 pm
"My opinion is there is One God the Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, and there is Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord..."

Frank, I am very doubtful that you would find this statement any more reasonable then you find the original wording. Am I wrong in this?
0 Replies
 
Foley
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Feb, 2007 04:13 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
Substitute "it is my opinion" in the following sentence, and tell me that you think it remains unchanged:

"I believe in God, the Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord..."


Did you fail to see the word "belief" in the definition of opinion? Here, let me show you.

Quote:
opinion-a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.


Do you see it now? Oh my, they mean the same thing. One is simply more concise than the other.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Feb, 2007 04:15 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
Sorry Frank,

You are losing us.


I'll 'splain!

Quote:

The fact is that there are some things on which each of us base our lives that are not based on facts. Whether you call these things "beliefs" or "opinions" is irrelevant.


Actually, it is not irrelevant. It is very relevant.

Calling an opinion…or a guess, when there is no substantial evidence…a "belief"…is an attempt to disguise the fact that it is nothing more than an opinion…or a guess.

Do you honestly think there would be any long, intense threads of arguments if people wrote: "It is my guess there is a God." Or even, "It is my opinion there is a God."

How many theists or atheists do you think would be comfortable presenting their arguments as "My guess is there is a God" or "MY guess is there are no gods."

The threads would end after two or three postings.

There is a huge difference…and it is very relevant.

How often do you see prolonged, intense arguments over an opinion? How many threads are started
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Feb, 2007 04:15 pm
The "point" of the debate (other than a Wittgensteinian analysis of the language games in which we use the word "belief") is surely to question the status of the word "fact" (and also "truth"). If "facts" are no more than widely accepted "beliefs" then the contrast between "belief" and "fact" breaks down. Those who claim that "mathematical facts" are the model on which "factual necessity"is based must consider Godels incompleteness theorem which states that at least one axiom must be assumed (=belief) in a mathematical system. A change of such an axiom was required for the noneuclidean geometry adopted by Einstein to establish the "facts" of space time.
0 Replies
 
Foley
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Feb, 2007 04:17 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:

Actually, it is not irrelevant. It is very relevant.

Calling an opinion…or a guess, when there is no substantial evidence…a "belief"…is an attempt to disguise the fact that it is nothing more than an opinion…or a guess.


No, it isn't. It only means that in your mind. A belief is when you think something is true, but can't prove it. And opinion is what you think, but can't prove it.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Feb, 2007 04:18 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
"My opinion is there is One God the Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, and there is Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord..."

Frank, I am very doubtful that you would find this statement any more reasonable then you find the original wording. Am I wrong in this?


It is not a question of how I would find it.

It is a question of whether the two sentences...as I originally posted it and as you revised it...mean the same thing to the people using the sentence. Do you think that the churches and the people using the Apostles Creed would consider those two versions identical?

I think not...because I don't think the people using the word "believe" in the original version was using it to mean "I think" "I opine" or "I guess."

That is the problem with the word.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Feb, 2007 04:18 pm
ebrown, you have shown that "believe" cannot be replaced by "opinion" in every case. It's a stylistic matter, I suppose (is "suppose" acceptable?). But the term, style, cannot be used in a discussion concerning Frank. Boorishness, perhaps.

Damn, that felt good.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Feb, 2007 04:18 pm
Foley wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:

Actually, it is not irrelevant. It is very relevant.

Calling an opinion…or a guess, when there is no substantial evidence…a "belief"…is an attempt to disguise the fact that it is nothing more than an opinion…or a guess.


No, it isn't. It only means that in your mind. A belief is when you think something is true, but can't prove it. And opinion is what you think, but can't prove it.


Foley...go play in traffic. You are not equipped for this kind of discussion.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Feb, 2007 04:25 pm
Quote:

How often do you see prolonged, intense arguments over an opinion?


LOL. Come on Frank, that is all we do around here.

Most of the prolonged intense arguments over things that have nothing to do with "belief" religious or otherwise.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Feb, 2007 04:33 pm
Laughing Laughing Laughing
Frank, I stand corrected. Your recommendation to Foley (about playing in traffic) did have some style.

Fresco, I've always thought that "facts", no matter how hard, are--if we dig deeply enough--"little theories" resting on tacit presuppositions. Even Science's grand "truth" is presupposed, a matter of belief, rather than some kind of "proven" entity (arrived at scientifically) upon which to found the scientific enterprise. The difference between Science and Philosophy is that many philosophers consider the concept of truth to be problematical. I've never read a scientific (or pre-postmodern social scientific) treatise that questions the nature of truth, before attempt to advance it.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Feb, 2007 04:40 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
Quote:

How often do you see prolonged, intense arguments over an opinion?


LOL. Come on Frank, that is all we do around here.

Most of the prolonged intense arguments over things that have nothing to do with "belief" religious or otherwise.


I refer you to my opening comments which limit this theme to "discussions in the philosophical and religious areas."

For certain we can get into protracted arguments in the political or entertainment forums over "opinions"...but that truly is not what I am talking about. Please take the time to read that opening segment again and you will see that I am making that limitation.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Feb, 2007 04:42 pm
JLNobody wrote:
Laughing Laughing Laughing
Frank, I stand corrected. Your recommendation to Foley (about playing in traffic) did have some style.


Thanks, JL. I addressed some of your concerns about my..."style"...in that other thread. Hope you take time to read it and think about what I said there.

Almost time for the game...so I will probably sign off in very short order.
0 Replies
 
 

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