9
   

Atheists, smarter than religious people

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Feb, 2007 08:05 pm
Chumly wrote:

Quote:
Hey Frank,
What precisely would it take for you to believe there is a god?


I do not do believing.

Quote:
I am not convinced that if god did make its presence known to you in some fashion, I would be any more likely to say with any reasonable certainty that god exists.


You would be a fool to do otherwise.

Quote:
How would I ever separate your truth from your illusion in this example?


Beats me! If your hypothetical were reversed…I would not even make an attempt to do it.


Quote:
And The above argument tends to show it's impossible to reasonably prove god exists, thus this makes your position of saying there might be a god rather questionable in terms of demonstrable convincing proof.


Proof????

I'm am just looking for evidence…in either direction.

No need for proof...just enough probative evidence to make a meaningful guess in one direction or another would suffice.


Quote:
So again I ask, what precisely would it take for you to believe there is a god?


I do not do believing.


If you are asking me what would it take for me to GUESS there is a God…I honestly cannot imagine my making that guess.

Perhaps if words written on the sky predicting that the entire Solar System would be moved to another spot in our galaxy without disruption to our well-being…and it happening...with the only evidence of the move being the obvious different stars and patterns…and all of this done on a particular day…with restoration to our present spot in the galaxy happening with prior notice some one year after the original move…

…might give me pause.



Why do you ask?
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Feb, 2007 08:46 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
Quote:

The exact same amount of evidence exists for the nonexistence of each of the above entities (NONE), correct?


No…absolutely phuking not!

Please provide all the evidence you have that gods do not exist…and I will go through this exercise with you. If not…blow it out you're a$$. Because you are the person claiming "the evidence for the nonexistence of each" is exactly the same…so all I have to do is to present one more piece of evidence that you present to show that gods do not exist…and you will be shown to be wrong.
Frankyboy; you need to read more carefully. The above, essentially rhetorical question, is asking you to confirm there is ZERO evidence that can prove the nonexistence of each of the above entities. Now we know you reject the thought of evidence against the existence of God. That much is clear. Now I'd like you to show me evidence against the existence of any of the other above entities that is any more concrete then that which you reject in respect to God. Meanwhile, for as long as you're silly enough to try, I'll just kick back and take potshots at your apparent stupidity in not recognizing the futility of the task. Considering your treatment of atheists, this strikes me as the fair and noble thing to do until you either provide the evidence to back your untenable position, or admit your hypocrisy, or (and this is the most likely) you ignore the big bold challenge above while pretending your hypocrisy hasn't been exposed. Anyone may feel free to come up with an answer for anything he may produce. You will find, just as when he does it to atheists, it's exceedingly simple. :wink:

Frank Apisa wrote:
It is interesting to me that you claim there IS ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE THAT GODS DO NOT EXIST…yet you are willing to claim they do not exist. What kind of abject fool would do something as ignorant as that…and actually brag about it in public?????
Laughing Other than paraphrasing you and others; I've yet to offer an opinion on this thread one way or another... purposely not, so you couldn't shift the burden of proof to me. I'll tell you when we've finished this exercise. :wink:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Bill wrote:

Quote:
I understand you perfectly, Edgar. I believe Frank has stepped into a trap that will force him to admit he does too.


THIS...from the guy who didn't have the brains to actually set the trap...and had to ask my help in doing so!!!!!!

Oh this is too phuking funny for words. My life is normally filled with joys...but today has started out on a splendid note!!!

Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
Laughing Yes; trapping a word-player can be tedious… but if one asks politely, sometimes they'll construct their own trap. Thank you for playing along. :cool:

Cyracuz wrote:
Occom Bill wrote:
Quote:
Nope. There is no cause to assume the an all mighty Darth Vader would choose to enlighten George with the "truth". He may work in mysterious ways, you know.


Well, based on that line of "reasoning" there is no cause to assume that you're a real person. You might just be a thought in my head, and you might vanish when I go to sleep.
Not so. Presence is proof of existence. However; a lack of presence does not constitute proof of non-existence. And therein lies the problem.

It would appear you do indeed get the point, though. Frank's silly burden shift is absurd on it's face. Proving the non-existence of any supernatural entity will forever remain impossible. One can always conjure up a rebuttal, regardless of the objection. That is the nature of the supernatural beast. That's why Frank gets to have fun abusing atheists, and why I now get to have fun abusing Frank until he recognizes his folly. :wink:

Like I said before:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
At this juncture; the only difference between Frank and Edgar's positions; is the degree to which each will lend the slightest bit of credence to that which is un-provable, improbable, or depending on your view; flat out ridiculous. Edgar has a slightly lower threshold for that which is ridiculous.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Feb, 2007 10:05 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
Chumly wrote:

Quote:
Hey Frank,
What precisely would it take for you to believe there is a god?


I do not do believing.

Quote:
I am not convinced that if god did make its presence known to you in some fashion, I would be any more likely to say with any reasonable certainty that god exists.


You would be a fool to do otherwise.

Quote:
How would I ever separate your truth from your illusion in this example?


Beats me! If your hypothetical were reversed…I would not even make an attempt to do it.


Quote:
And The above argument tends to show it's impossible to reasonably prove god exists, thus this makes your position of saying there might be a god rather questionable in terms of demonstrable convincing proof.


Proof????

I'm am just looking for evidence…in either direction.

No need for proof...just enough probative evidence to make a meaningful guess in one direction or another would suffice.


Quote:
So again I ask, what precisely would it take for you to believe there is a god?


I do not do believing.


If you are asking me what would it take for me to GUESS there is a God…I honestly cannot imagine my making that guess.

Perhaps if words written on the sky predicting that the entire Solar System would be moved to another spot in our galaxy without disruption to our well-being…and it happening...with the only evidence of the move being the obvious different stars and patterns…and all of this done on a particular day…with restoration to our present spot in the galaxy happening with prior notice some one year after the original move…

…might give me pause.



Why do you ask?
If at present you maintain there is the possibility of a god (and as a card carrying, conservative, dictionary-referring-to agnostic*, I'll take this as a given) my position would be that you can only argue for the possibility of a god if you are willing, in a real world pragmatic sense, to claim that there could be a set of circumstances whereby at least you would be convinced of this god.

But…….even if such a (believable to you) set of circumstances were to arise, it would not automatically follow that anyone else would confirm your new found belief.

Thus how can you hold a position whereby:

a) You do not know of the circumstances by which you would be convinced.

b) Even if such a set of (at preset) unknown set of circumstances were to preset itself to you, it in no way automatically follows that anyone else would confirm your new found belief.

As per a) b) no scientifically/logically based claim would be worth the paper it was printed on if that was the criteria on which it had to exclusively rely.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Feb, 2007 10:05 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
Chumly wrote:

Quote:
Hey Frank,
What precisely would it take for you to believe there is a god?


I do not do believing.

Quote:
I am not convinced that if god did make its presence known to you in some fashion, I would be any more likely to say with any reasonable certainty that god exists.


You would be a fool to do otherwise.

Quote:
How would I ever separate your truth from your illusion in this example?


Beats me! If your hypothetical were reversed…I would not even make an attempt to do it.


Quote:
And The above argument tends to show it's impossible to reasonably prove god exists, thus this makes your position of saying there might be a god rather questionable in terms of demonstrable convincing proof.


Proof????

I'm am just looking for evidence…in either direction.

No need for proof...just enough probative evidence to make a meaningful guess in one direction or another would suffice.


Quote:
So again I ask, what precisely would it take for you to believe there is a god?


I do not do believing.


If you are asking me what would it take for me to GUESS there is a God…I honestly cannot imagine my making that guess.

Perhaps if words written on the sky predicting that the entire Solar System would be moved to another spot in our galaxy without disruption to our well-being…and it happening...with the only evidence of the move being the obvious different stars and patterns…and all of this done on a particular day…with restoration to our present spot in the galaxy happening with prior notice some one year after the original move…

…might give me pause.



Why do you ask?
If at present you maintain there is the possibility of a god (and as a card carrying, conservative, dictionary-referring-to agnostic, I'll take this as a given) my position would be that you can only argue for the possibility of a god if you are willing, in a real world pragmatic sense, to claim that there could be a set of circumstances whereby at least you would be convinced of this god.

But…….even if such a (believable to you) set of circumstances were to arise, it would not automatically follow that anyone else would confirm your new found belief.

Thus how can you hold a position whereby:

a) You do not know the circumstances by which you would be convinced.

b) Even if such a set of (at preset) unknown set of circumstances were to preset itself to you, it in no way automatically follows that anyone else would confirm your new found belief.

As per a) & b) no scientifically/logically based claim would be worth the paper it was printed on if that was the criteria on which it had to exclusively rely.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Feb, 2007 10:56 pm
Why does Frank the Cyclic get to win all these points? Because he outlasts those who don't think rigidly, sort of like Bozo in high school, not by argument, and certainly not by listening to anyone else's points, but by charming belligerence.

I tire of having thoughtful folk on any side, theist to atheist (I've been those) slimed as stupid just for fun, here, THWONK.


The day Frank even begins to listen is the day anyone else can talk with him, a beginner or a scholar. In the meantime, we have some kind of designer pit, the ultimate golf hole.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Feb, 2007 11:07 pm
Can anyone please translate for me what osso just said?
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Feb, 2007 11:09 pm
Gee, just ask me..
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Feb, 2007 11:13 pm
Okay, what did you just say in the previous post?
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Feb, 2007 11:16 pm
Can I try, osso?

She said that Frank wins these stupid battles not because of any particular intellectual or skillful advantage, but because he's the most mule-headed... and so it goes...
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Feb, 2007 11:17 pm
Laughing My turn! She said Frank, who is admired enough for his candor to overlook his belligerence, isn't a very good listener. Hence, those of us who play with him are not unlike a Don Quixote, wagering battle in an abyss. Right Osso?
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Feb, 2007 11:18 pm
Thank you, that's it, Snood.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Feb, 2007 11:28 pm
Thank you; all three of yuze! Wink
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Feb, 2007 11:29 pm
Snood and Occom get it.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Feb, 2007 11:45 pm
I don't mean to insult Frank, or maybe I do but not entirely.

I see people argueing with a balloon. The balloon is not capable of seeing elements of nuance.

I've been on both sides of the theism thing, even on the positive side in my theological battle some years ago, and surely for faith before that.

I'm forty years past all that, but I remember it, and I wasn't stupid then either.

I disagree now, but see no use or understanding in stupid-ifying.


And my pov is, never mind religion, war can be about any difference.
Better to fight over the chunk of cheese than to throw missiles.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Feb, 2007 11:48 pm
Me, me!!

Frank is a huge, grimy sledgehammer--forever in pounding motion. An ancient mythological repetition never to stop in his relentless pursuit of...hitting that same nail.

Oh darn. I see it's all over.

She did get "charming" in there... I don't know where the hell she got that.

I think she is also thinking of coming over to the dark side where we hit thoughtful people like this: THWONK!!
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Feb, 2007 11:54 pm
She?

Oh, Hi, Lash...









<Wonder what we'll say next..>.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Feb, 2007 12:15 am
This may come as a bolt from the blue to some, but IIRC Frank has always been polite to me. And I have brought him to task on a number of points.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Feb, 2007 12:17 am
Hi, osso. I didn't notice I "she'd" you. Sorry. Very Happy
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Feb, 2007 12:19 am
Lash -

Well, ok, then, but, er, how could you not notice? but I'll grant you didn't, as you'd be surprised what I miss.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Feb, 2007 12:21 am
Chumly wrote:
This may come as a bolt from the blue to some, but IIRC Frank has always been polite to me. And I have brought him to task on a number of points.





Oh, good.
0 Replies
 
 

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