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Mel Gibson's The Passion, sparking concern from the ADL.

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2004 09:08 am
LW,

How do you know Gibson "succumbed" to the use of subtitles (as opposed to choosing to do so) and for what reason he did it? What is the factual basis for this assertion?

Evidently you do not believe Gibson is "sincere", at least in some aspects of the film or related mattters. What standard of sincerity are you applying here? The common norm for Hollywood? Or perhaps another?

I have no quarrel with your opinions concerning artistic merit (or the lack of it), or indeed for your expressed preferences in art. However I don't believe your attacks on Gibson's character and motives are either justified in your argument, or a believable enhancement to your otherwise reasonable criticisms. They leave one with questions concerning your own motives.
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blatham
 
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Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2004 09:18 am
hobit
great site...thanks kindly
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2004 11:16 am
It's well known that Gibson was not going to sub-title the movie until he found Newmarket as a distributor. It doesn't take much to figure out he was going to have to sub-title the film because of marketing problems of a film in a foreign language that only a small portion of the population can even decipher. It's been debated within this discussion before the film was released to the nationwide cineplexes instead of the art theaters. I'm puzzled by placing "succumbed" in quotation marks. It's used exactly as was meant.

Exactly why would doubting Gibson's motives be an attack on his character? If he were to donate all the profits to a charity I might believe he was sincere in his desire to merely express his faith. It's possible he didn't expect to make a lot of money and it does remain to be seen what he will do with it. As I've said before, he disagrees adamantly with the present Catholic church about many things so I doubt he will give money to the Pope.
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Lightwizard
 
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Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2004 12:06 pm
BTW, the films Mel has previously starred in would unlikely be endorsed by the Pope. To date, the Pope has withheld endorsement of this film. I'm just wondering if anyone trying to defend Gibson has not only not seen the film but have read none of the critical reviews. Are the lights on in your house?
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georgeob1
 
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Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2004 12:14 pm
Well some of the lights are on, but not all.

I doubt that the Pope will endorese this or any film. I'm not much interested in Gibson's particular views on religion or doctrine. I do find the general disposition to attack him and to note things he may have done to (as you suggest) to make the film more marketable all a bit out of synch with the common reality of Hollywood productions. Where did all these high standards come from? Why don't we see them more often?
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Lightwizard
 
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Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2004 12:32 pm
This film is not an example of high standards and considering the films Gibson has been involved in the past, there is a tinge of hypocrisy in my book.

Nearly everyone in these discussions has agreed about the sub-titles (hobitbob was the only one who could understand the languages). Would you sit through any film in a foreign language with no sub-titles? I would say that the popularity of the film (especially with Hispanic Americans who are Catholic which has been tracked as the portion of the population who are likely to go back and see the film again) definitely hangs on it being sub-titled. The one line about the Jews being responsible for Jesus' death that is from scripture was left in but not sub-titled. What does that tell you?

Make no mistake, Gibson is not happy about the negative reviews. He's not sloughing them off.

Again, I will not reveal sources of any information I get from the industry but I do get information that is not always published. I am reticent to even give any of that information if it is sensitive or I'm not certain it isn't a rumor.

If anyone on here likes pressing buttons and questions anyone's character based on their dislike of the film, be guided by your own conscious.
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Hazlitt
 
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Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2004 01:19 pm
LW, I am no expert on film or the film industry, but I have seen this film and have read everything about it that has come to hand.

I agree with most of what you have said in your last few posts. The movie might be more aptly titled the Passion of Christ--or Gibson's Folly. I think he fails in his stated intention to tell the story exactly as it was told in the gospel record. First, he was selective in his emphases most notibly in his emphasis on the scourging of Jesus, and in his emphasis upon Jewish responsibility at the expense of Roman. Second, he added material that is not in the gospel record: namely the physical presence of Satan, almost as an orchestrating force of events.

When it comes to Art, I am still having trouble accepting special effects as they have come to be used in current movies. I'm aware that they are sometimes used to help us see and imagine things as they are. I recall LW telling us about how some racing scenes in Seabiscut were computer enhanced because no camera could have gotten it as it might look. However, most often special effects seem to be used to make us see things that in reality could not happen or would not likely happen. I thought much of what we saw in Passion fell into the later category. I have trouble thinking of it as art. I usually think of it as excess, and this is especially true, for me, in Passion.

Yet, I acknowledge that most who are younger than I and who have grown up with special effects, may be moved by what they see, and may think of it as art.
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Lightwizard
 
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Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2004 01:31 pm
You're right. We're suppose to believe this is all real, not a fantasy like "The Lord of the Rings" (although reading the books, I became almost convinced that Tolkien's world did in fact exist). There is no subtle hints as to what something might have been like and there is the perchance for trying to seamlessly incorporate the CGI. Leno and other comics had a field day with the Devil first appearing as a woman!
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Lightwizard
 
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Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2004 01:35 pm
As far as retitling the film:

The Passion of the Lethal Weapon
Mad Max on the Cross
The Man With No Face (oh, I'm sorry, he already made that film)
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georgeob1
 
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Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2004 10:21 pm
LW, Let's declare a truce. I'll see the goddamn film and keep your criticisms (seriously) in mind as I do. You should ask yourself if you exert this much energy in criticizing other Hollywood products, and, if you don't, as yourself why.

Deal?
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InfraBlue
 
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Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2004 11:56 pm
Well, I just saw this film this afternoon. It strengthened the suspicions I had when all I had seen was the trailer. So I'll reiterate.

Quote:
The bloodiness is over the top, but that's Mel for ya, over the top. It's like the Passion for the pro wrestling crowd. Will a Roman soldier do a pile driver on Jesus? I wonder how many gallons of Karo syrup and food coloring they used for this movie. I like the bloodiness in Jesus of Nazareth better, more subtle, less is more in my opinion. For the amount of blood Mel hosed around, he could have made it look less pink.

From the looks of the trailer, this movie is about emphasising the graphic violence of the Passion. Kinda like what Saving Private Ryan did for war cinematography, for which it set the bar. The story line was mediocre, though. The Passion will probably be the same.


Actually, the blood looked fairly real in the movie.

This movie is about nothing more and nothing else other than Christs' Passion, so it can't be compared to the more complete Christ movies that have been produced. I think Gibson would do well to produce another movie or so to round out the Christ story.

Quote:
. . . someone flogged in the way that this Jesus was in Mel's movie would have eventually lost conciousness. I mean, this guy had lacerations and welts all over his body, not just his back. I think he had a welt across his eye. The blood loss portrayed is enormous. This is one sturdy fellow, seeing as how someone of lesser fortitude would have gone into shock by this time. And then, he shuffles to the place of his execution outside the city walls--all the while dragging his very own crucifix on his back!

I'm sure the Romans were as bloodily barbaric as the next ancients, but I think they'd have the perspicacity to hold back on the zealous whipping enough to ensure the condemned would be able to walk, dragging the means of his death on his back, to the place of his execution. The point would have been to make him suffer a slow, agonizing death on the cross, not by the prefatory hiding, in my opinon.


There are a few questions, observations and thoughts that arise upon seeing the movie, though.

In the Judas Iscariot scenes, what is the significance of portraying the children as demons? Is that derived from the meditations of Anne Catherine Emmerich?

From what I saw, both Jews and Goyim were portrayed as reveling in killing Yeshua, not just Jews.

Was it Schopenhauer or one of the German existentialists who said Christianity is a religion for gods, for perfect beings? It is impossible to expect humans to abide by those expectations. If someone strikes you on the cheek, if you present the other one, he will merely strike you on it also, but if someone strikes you on the cheek and you raise your hand, he will at least think about striking you again!

Watching the scene where he's being scourged and then a cut to the flashback of his preaching where he said (paraphrased), You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" a question came to my mind,

Do you American Christian patriots love and bless al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden, do you do good to them and pray for them, for JHWH makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust?
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cicerone imposter
 
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Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 12:14 am
They not only love and bless al Qaida and Osama, but the 15,000 Iraqis "we" killed - most were innocent men, women, and children. We love them all! Pardon me while I go into the head and barf.
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Scrat
 
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Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 01:48 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
They not only love and bless al Qaida and Osama, but the 15,000 Iraqis "we" killed - most were innocent men, women, and children. We love them all! Pardon me while I go into the head and barf.

I love reading your posts, CI. As of only a few days ago you were complaining of the "10,000" Iraqis killed. Now the number has swelled to "15,000". Is it your contention that 5,000 Iraqis have died in the last week? Or are we simply to infer from this that we can't put credence in any supposed "facts" you share here?
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cavfancier
 
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Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 01:56 pm
I think that if Bush gets re-elected, which looks doubtful, he'll get on his knees and thank his creepy Jesus for Al Qaeda and Osama, and pray for another "enemy" to smite.
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Brandon9000
 
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Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 02:01 pm
cavfancier wrote:
I think that if Bush gets re-elected, which looks doubtful, he'll get on his knees and thank his creepy Jesus for Al Qaeda and Osama, and pray for another "enemy" to smite.

I believe that the president confronts dangers like Osama and Al Qaeda, simply because they are dangerous to us and ought to be confronted, but, then, this really belongs on the Politics board, since it is generally not desirable to kidnap a film discussion and change it into a different topic not related to film.
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 02:25 pm
Brandon - I can't speak for anyone else, but I wound up in this discussion through a link either from the Politics or News categories, or through a link someone posted in a discussion I'd been involved in. (I think it was the former, but I am not sure.)

I was unaware that this discussion was house under the "Film" category until only recently. I NEVER look at the film category, so I KNOW I didn't come to it from there.

Now that I see that it is under "Film", I've pretty much dropped out, except of course reading comments and now sharing this with you. I just wanted to let you know that some people--like me--may have genuinely considered this a discussion of the media circus surrounding the film, rather than the merits of the film itself.
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Brandon9000
 
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Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 02:54 pm
Scrat wrote:
Brandon - I can't speak for anyone else...

Thanks.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 11:23 pm
I seldom pan a film or get involved with lengthy discussions about a film's merits or misfires. The pretentiousness of this particular film likely got my dander up. Gibson is a very curious person and his father even more curious. Richard Roeper this Sunday said he was going to send a copy of "Schindler's List" to Gibson's father! He was serious. I have not judged the film based on any preceived faith considerations. I have thoroughly enjoyed and endorse many films based on the Bible (witness my lauding of "The Gospel According to St. Mathews" which is a maginificent chronicle of the scriptures). I certainly cannot see why anyone would not recognized the marked liberties Gibson has taken and the overzealous filming of the gore. However, it certainly is someone's cup of tea (although popularity at the box office so often falls under Mencken's statement regarding not losing money underestimating the taste of the American public). It's inexplicable and there's been no critic or anyone on these boards that has convinced me of the film's quality. It would be a good idea to leave it at that.
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georgeob1
 
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Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 11:40 pm
LW, a disappointing reply. You have still evaded the question of just why this of all films merits such attention and intent criticism, considering all the exploitive trash that is produced in such quantity by Hollywood. Your defense does not ring true - at least to me - though I see now that you will uphold it at all costs. Moreover you go on to castigate the characters of both the producer and even his father. Is this a reasoned conclusion or just revealed truth to which only the annointed are given access?
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 11:57 pm
I have my opinion regarding Gibson as an actor, as a director and as a person. If you'll note, I'm not alone criticizing this film. I am not offering any defense and I don't know why you would even read that into anything I've said. Where have I "castigated" the character of the producer and his father? It's already been done in the press and other media. You're trying to shoot the messanger in that case. I haven't even said how much I agree with the assertions. You have the right not to believe anything about Gibson's personal life and in the end it really has nothing to do with the fact that many believe the film is just more Hollywood trash dressed up to look like an artfilm. It's a deeply flawed movie and I'll stick to that, thank you.

By all means see the movie -- you'll undoubtedly enjoy it.
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