Why does the god of the Bible consider slavery to be moral??

Neo wrote:

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Merely giving one interpretation of the bible account, Joe. If I misrepresent the bible, just point it out, OK?

What's the difference if you represent a fiction clearly? It remains a fiction.

I really like Free's question:

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I'm questioning whether knowing these things is of any tangible benefit to you whatsoever? Do you understand my point? We can debate all day whether they are true or not, but how can you argue that this is useful information even if it were true.

But not so your answer:

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Well, I am grateful for the life I have been given and am touched by the promise God has made to set all things straight. This realization is not without obligations to God which I gladly undertake. This despite my considerable failings.

which shows just how blinded you have become to reality, which allows you to weasel, sorry, interpret your way around Mesquite's questions and comments.

You argue that even if slavery was brutal, that's okay because the slaves are going to get their shot at the resurrection?? Holy Cow, Buffalo Bob! How nice for the unknowing slaves, but really nice for their knowing slavemasters.

That's some myth you got going there. If everybody gets a free pass, and that includes you, I guess, even if you screw up those mentioned but undefined obligations, then what's the point of pointing out whether or not you interpret these notions correctly?? Even if you get it wrong, someday everything is going to be set straight by the illusionary promise.

This isn't pie in the sky. It's pie in the faces of the slaves.

The tangible benefit you derive from all this is your own comfort and safety or at least the illusion that you have any.

Joe(Meanwhile, nature takes no notice and continues)Nation

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Joe Nation wrote:

. . .What's the difference if you represent a fiction clearly? It remains a fiction. . .

You are entitled to your opinion of the bible whether you have taken the time to read it or not. At least skeeter has made an effort. I hope it works out for you.

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neologist wrote:

Re: belief.
mesquite wrote:
. . .Is it not necessary for the reward?
There will be many who never knew and never believed yet who will enjoy the opportunity afforded by the resurrection.

That includes all the slaves whose humanity you feel has been violated, as well as soldiers misguided by politicians and priests, victims of murder and torture, etc.

By "opportunity" do you mean opportunity to "believe for reward"?

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neologist wrote:

Joe Nation wrote:
. . .What's the difference if you represent a fiction clearly? It remains a fiction. . .
You are entitled to your opinion of the bible whether you have taken the time to read it or not. At least skeeter has made an effort. I hope it works out for you.

Neo, I didn't just fall off a turnip truck, bang my head and decide the bible was a tissue of falsehoods. I am the product of several years of theology (Catholic, I'm afraid, tsk, tsk) and a good hundred volumes of philosophy, history (okay, two hundred) and related subjects. If I have concealed my efforts at studying these affairs from you, the shame is mine. The ignorance and delusion remain where they are embraced.

Joe(carry on)Nation

Good luck, Mesquite.

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Joe Nation wrote:

neologist wrote:
Joe Nation wrote:
. . .What's the difference if you represent a fiction clearly? It remains a fiction. . .
You are entitled to your opinion of the bible whether you have taken the time to read it or not. At least skeeter has made an effort. I hope it works out for you.

Neo, I didn't just fall off a turnip truck, bang my head and decide the bible was a tissue of falsehoods. I am the product of several years of theology (Catholic, I'm afraid, tsk, tsk) and a good hundred volumes of philosophy, history (okay, two hundred) and related subjects. If I have concealed my efforts at studying these affairs from you, the shame is mine. The ignorance and delusion remain where they are embraced.

Joe(carry on)Nation

Good luck, Mesquite.

I'm many years from the turnip truck myself and have seen my share of life. I was also raised a Catholic and left the church at age 14. I spent many years between apatheism atheism and agnosticism before I dragged myself with my 'better senses' kicking and screaming into a Kingdom Hall.

So, I have not taken this lightly, and can say from experience only that a Catholic background is a poor foundation for truth. Smile

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neo: So, I have not taken this lightly, and can say from experience only that a Catholic background is a poor foundation for truth.

I always knew there was a spark of hope in you! Most of the protestant religions are also "poor foundation for truth."

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neologist wrote:

I'm many years from the turnip truck myself and have seen my share of life. I was also raised a Catholic and left the church at age 14. I spent many years between apatheism atheism and agnosticism before I dragged myself with my 'better senses' kicking and screaming into a Kingdom Hall.

I wonder how that would have turned out had A2K been around back then. Very Happy

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mesquite wrote:

neologist wrote:
I'm many years from the turnip truck myself and have seen my share of life. I was also raised a Catholic and left the church at age 14. I spent many years between apatheism atheism and agnosticism before I dragged myself with my 'better senses' kicking and screaming into a Kingdom Hall.

I wonder how that would have turned out had A2K been around back then.

When I was in college a few of us facetiously started a Friday night religion at the local tavern. I think we had enough members to be granted legal status, though we never applied for it. We worshipped Quanta as the force behind the 'force'. Our rituals consisted of reverentially consuming the beer and the pizza alternating with making the sign of the Q, complete with an appropriate flourish for the tail. Perhaps if our fellow a2kers had been around to join us at that time, we could have altered the course of the world for the better.

As it was we went home drunk and slept it off.

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A "wasted" nite out with the boys, I see. LOL

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And containing the same amount of foundation as either the Church of Rome or the Kingdom Hall.

Joe(all hail, the Q!!)Nation

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Why do you suppose the god of the Bible saw nothing wrong wi
"You were bought with a price."-1 COR 6:20.

Although slavery existed in ancient Israel, the Mosaic Law ensured that Hebrew slaves received protection. For instance, the Law required that an Israelite could serve as a slave for no more than six years. In the seventh year, he was to "go out as one set free without charge." But the regulations concerning the treatment of slaves were so fair and humane that the Law of Moses made the following provision: "If the slave should insistently say, 'I really love my master, my wife and my sons; I do not want to go out as one set free,' then his master must bring him near to the true God and must bring him up against the door or the doorpost; and his master must pierce his ear through with an awl, and he must be his slave to time indefinite."-Exodus 21:2-6; Leviticus 25:42, 43; Deuteronomy 15:12-18.

The provision of voluntary servitude provided a foregleam of the type of slavery that true Christians are under. For example, the Bible writers Paul, James, Peter, and Jude identified themselves as slaves of God and of Christ. (Titus 1:1; James 1:1; 2 Peter 1:1; Jude 1) Paul reminded the Thessalonian Christians that they had "turned to God from [their] idols to slave for a living and true God." (1 Thessalonians 1:9) What moved those Christians to become willing slaves of God? Well, what was the motivating force in the case of the Israelite slave who renounced his personal freedom? Was it not love for his master? Christian slavery is based on love for God. When we come to know and love the true and living God, we are moved to serve him "with all [our] heart and all [our] soul." (Deuteronomy 10:12, 13)

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Ain't that sumpt'n; one can always rationalize slavery. How 'bout rape?

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With all due respect, I think we have reached a new level of bizarro-wackiness now. There is a considerable difference between proclaiming oneself a slave to god and me deciding that you, hankarin, ought to be my slave for a good long while because my god says it's okay by him.

I understand that part of what you are saying is poetic. Slaves to love and all. But you ask :

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What moved those Christians to become willing slaves of God? Well, what was the motivating force in the case of the Israelite slave who renounced his personal freedom? Was it not love for his master?

The answer, as any good psychcologist could tell you, is we don't know without asking them, but we can, as you have, make some guesses.

Maybe the slave was so traumatized by the experience he sought to continue his captivity. That would make his cleaving to my master either a case of sado-masochism or an early example of Stockholm Syndrome.

Maybe slavery and the conditions thereof so stunted the captive's ability to act on his own that he felt unsafe and insecure in a condition of freedom. Ask any inmate released after twenty years or so how it feels to walk down a unfenced street the first ten or twenty times? Freedom has become an un-natural condition for them.

Slavery of any kind, I hope you would agree, is a unnatural state for any human being, but the use of it to promote the love of god seems particularly weird and slightly pathological. Then again, the more one looks at the Christian myth the more one sees odd things: consumption of corpus transubstantiated, virgin births and persons rising into the air unaided by wings together with lots of blood being shed by brutalized victims of injustice.

Joe(There's a foregleam of the type of slavery promoted by the believers.)Nation

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Joe Nation wrote:

And containing the same amount of foundation as either the Church of Rome or the Kingdom Hall.

Joe(all hail, the Q!!)Nation

Ever been to a KIngdom hall, Joe?

The first time I went, I thought I would meet a bunch of mouth foamin' mumble speakin' holy rollers. I couldn't believe they was just regular folks - some smart - some not so smart - some even really smart - all willing to accept me even as the jerk I had become.

You probably are a lot less of a jerk than I was, so you may appreciate things more. They won't bite; I can assure you.

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I'm sure it's comfortable, buddy, but, like it or not, it's all based on a highly embroidered set of myths. I can't waste this life pretending.

Joe(pretending is for children, oh, and actors, but they get paid for doing it. Come to think of it, so do preachers.)Nation

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Joe Nation wrote:

I'm sure it's comfortable, buddy, but, like it or not, it's all based on a highly embroidered set of myths. I can't waste this life pretending.

Joe(pretending is for children, oh, and actors, but they get paid for doing it. Come to think of it, so do preachers.)Nation

We don't have a paid clergy. Nor do we pass a collection plate.

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We weren't paid to lead rides in our bicycle club, but we didn't spend any time wondering if Satan was around the corner.

All the riders had to balance on their own.

Joe(just like real life)Nation

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Joe Nation wrote:

We weren't paid to lead rides in our bicycle club, but we didn't spend any time wondering if Satan was around the corner.

All the riders had to balance on their own.

Joe(just like real life)Nation

Good for you guys!

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Re: Why do you suppose the god of the Bible saw nothing wron

hankarin wrote:

"You were bought with a price."-1 COR 6:20.

Although slavery existed in ancient Israel, the Mosaic Law ensured that Hebrew slaves received protection. For instance, the Law required that an Israelite could serve as a slave for no more than six years. In the seventh year, he was to "go out as one set free without charge." But the regulations concerning the treatment of slaves were so fair and humane that the Law of Moses made the following provision: "If the slave should insistently say, 'I really love my master, my wife and my sons; I do not want to go out as one set free,' then his master must bring him near to the true God and must bring him up against the door or the doorpost; and his master must pierce his ear through with an awl, and he must be his slave to time indefinite."-Exodus 21:2-6; Leviticus 25:42, 43; Deuteronomy 15:12-18.

The provision of voluntary servitude provided a foregleam of the type of slavery that true Christians are under. For example, the Bible writers Paul, James, Peter, and Jude identified themselves as slaves of God and of Christ. (Titus 1:1; James 1:1; 2 Peter 1:1; Jude 1) Paul reminded the Thessalonian Christians that they had "turned to God from [their] idols to slave for a living and true God." (1 Thessalonians 1:9) What moved those Christians to become willing slaves of God? Well, what was the motivating force in the case of the Israelite slave who renounced his personal freedom? Was it not love for his master? Christian slavery is based on love for God. When we come to know and love the true and living God, we are moved to serve him "with all [our] heart and all [our] soul." (Deuteronomy 10:12, 13)

Hankarin, is your deception intentional or out of ignorance?

You write of the mosaic law concerning slaves as though it were a blessing to humanity but pick and choose verses to give a false representation.

The serving no more than six years applied only to Hebrew males, but you knew that right?

You quote from Exodus 2,3,5,6 but conveniently leave out verse 4, then have the huevos to ask, Well, what was the motivating force in the case of the Israelite slave who renounced his personal freedom? Was it not love for his master?.

Had you included verse 4 the answer would have been obvious.

Had you included verse 7 we would have seen that women were excluded.

Exodus 21:2-7
2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
.3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.

4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or
daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.

.5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
.6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.

Then just a few more verses down the page we have a passage to put to rest your assertion that the regulations concerning the treatment of slaves were so fair and humane. Yeah, so fair and humane that you could beat the bejesus out of your slave so long as they did not die within 2 days.

Exodus 21:20-21
20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money..

The six year rule applied only to God's chosen people. For others their outlook was bleak. You mention Leviticus 25:42,43 but convieniently omit 44,45,46.
Leviticus 25;
44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

Then we wind up leviticus 25 with one than puts the idea of voluntary servitude to Biblegod to rest.

55 For unto me the children of Israel are servants; they are my servants whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

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As has been explained before:

Slavery and other human miseries came upon mankind as a result of the Edenic rebellion.

If you wish to know God's opinion of human miseries in general, you have only to observe the life and activities of his chief representative, Jesus.

God has promised that he will set all matters straight in his time.

If God is not acting fast enough for you, perhaps you should counsel God.

Scriptures available (again) on request.

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Why does the god of the Bible consider slavery to be moral??

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