I'm opposed to movements that encourage everyone to vote

How do you feel about countries e.g. Australia where a registered voter who fails to exercise his/her franchise is actually fined for neglecting to do one's duty at the polls?

I agree Bubba, and the beauty contest we call a presidential election needs to be eliminated entirely. The power lies with congress anyway, a president could be appointed and let the people(voters) concentrate on the congressional candidates which is of more import.

BubbaGumbo- I agree. Anyone who has to be cajoled, wheedled or coerced into voting, really has no business at the polls. The problem is that there are politicians who want the unread, the uneducated, and the uninformed to vote for THEM.

Merry Andrew- I don't appprove of fining someone who does not vote. It is an individuals choice whether he wants to vote or not, and the government has no business commanding him to do so.

Our forefathers limited who could vote. Those eligible basiclly had to be landowners or "Those who had a stake in the system".

I think I've made myself quite clear about Oz. A country that voted away its own right to self preservation. I think that pretty well sums up what happens when you put such issues on a ballot before uninformed, no-dog-in-the-hunt, brainwashed voters.

It's that damned democracy thing again. If only we could limit the franchise to those actually QUALIFIED to vote... Maybe we could weed out the dregs through a literacy test or a poll tax. Although it would just be simpler to say this group over here is qualified by virtue of their particular identifier, like say how much property they own, while that group over there is clearly DISqualified by virtue of other identifiers, like say where they live or how much they earn...

On the other hand, maybe you all have got a point. Maybe some folks shouldn't be allowed to vote-- like people who think limiting the franchise rights of other citizens is a good idea!

I don't agree with the limiting of those who can vote other then those that are handicaped mentally. I also think we should try to make the average voter better informed. I'm not talking about the political propaganda either. People who understand what they are voting about and the actual changes that will be made make better voting decisions.

Experience is the best teacher. Any adult who lives in our society and engages in our free market economy is not ignorant of it's basic concepts- although they may not be able to articulate those concept coherently, I'm sure they know what they think.

How would you quantify "ignorance"? Who would be entrusted with the job of assessing levels of ignorance?

The get out and vote movements facilitate movement to polls and opportunities for education for people who might not otherwise have the means...if you believe that everyone in our country has the same access to education, information and transportation that you do- you're the one who is ignorant of some of the basic social and economic facts of our country. And if people are unread, uneducated and uninformed, maybe we should make a concerted effort to alleviate that problem.
(Sorry to be blunt, and no offense, but that's what I believe).

What a scary step backward you're suggesting....

Hmmm.............I have heard of politicians who round up (and sometimes pay) folks from homeless shelters. Should those people be voting?

As far as being handicapped mentally, are we talking about IQ? If so, what would be the cut-off? Or are we talking about people with mental illness? What about people who dropped out of school at at early age, and who do not read at a certain level of competence (What level would that be?)

What about people who are on the dole? Should a person who makes their living off the backs of taxpayers be able to vote for people who offer them even more "entitlements"? It is a very complicated issue, and I don't think that there are easy answers.

Yes, I think they're voice is important. Do you actually know any people who are homeless? I'm not going to assume what you do or don't believe about people who are homeless, but I think you might be surprised.


Or maybe they'd vote for the person who presented the better options for training and employment-who might be able to offer them their dignity restored through work.

It is complicated. And I think assumptions about anyone who is voting should be left out of it- because they're often inaccurate.

This is a rather naive statement. After Shays' rebellion, the states all extended the franchise to all adult, white males, without property qualification. Women in New Jersey had the vote, briefly, in the 18th century based on property qualification, but that was remedied shortly after the 19th century began by simply denying the vote to women in New Jersey. The limitations on the franchise in American history were based on race and gender, not on property qualification. To the extent that one could allege that adult white males had the largest stake in a system which they had set up to their own advantage, this is a reasonable statement. However, i strongly suspect that you make this remark without having bothered to inform yourself on the history of the franchise in our country.

I'm just wondering: is this here all your real opinion?

People have fought over centuries to get a right vote and nowadays, the legitimacy of democratic government is usually considered to derive primarily from universal suffrage.

But might well be that this is apecial to germany - our Basic Law [constitution] says: "All public authority emanates from the people. It shall be exercised by the people through elections ..." (Article 20, Paragraph 2) and "These principles are irrevocable." (Article 79, Paragraph 3).

This means that every German citizen, irrespective of religion, race, education, sex, wealth or the amount of tax paid has the right to vote.

Which is good and only fair.

Mentally disabled persons are only then excluded here when they've got a legal custodian and such (= no right to vote) is ordered as well by the court.

Besides that, only persons who got a court sentence (in criminal cases) noting that are excluded (which doesn't happens often) and persons who committed an unlawful act and at the time lacked capacity to be adjudged guilty and are therefore placed by a court order in a psychiatrc hospital.

Not all is rosy, Walter, even in Dutchland. Is it not true that Turks, who came to Germany over a half a century ago, to do all the sh*t work of the "economic miracle," are not German citizens? Is it not also true that their children, born in Germany, are not German citizens?

There's too much emotion-based, no dog in the hunt voting going on for sure. The defeat of the Michigan dove hunt is representative of that. Bought and paid for by an out of state, D.C. based PAC that came in and ignored science and drove little old ladies to the polls.

It's not democracy. It's manipulation of democracy.

BBB
Limiting voter participation is not the answer.

The real answer is that we should be teaching Civics in school again. Civics is missing in too many schools and it's absence is clear from the voting patterns in the US.

BBB

Teaching Civics: A Call to Action
One example of Civics teaching ---BBB

Teaching Civics: A Call to Action
Principal Leadership, Sep 2004 by Berman, Sheldon H

A school is restructured to teach students civic skills and give all students a voice in school governance.

The program consists of civic education classes, service-learning projects, and small learning communities.

Students participate in weekly cluster meetings and a community council, where they can raise issues of importance to them.

Because the national education agenda is focused on standards, testing, and accountability, schools are at risk of narrowly defining their mission as improving test scores. In this environment, it is easy to forget that public education serves a larger civic mission. Preserving and promoting a democratic society was the founding precept of our public education system. If educators are to continue to preserve democracy, this mission must remain central to their efforts.

In contrast to the elementary level where class meetings, social development curricula, and service-learning projects encourage a sense of civic engagement and give students the experience of community, the larger school size and the subjectbased structure of middle level and high schools make this task much more challenging. Complicating this further, the typical student council involves very few students and often fails to teach civic skills to the broader student body. Its focus is primarily social, and the students who serve are often the most active and popular-and the ones who may least need the experience of democratic engagement. Even the high school social studies curriculum tends to neglect civics by making it a senior elective. It is no wonder that voter participation among 18- to 24-year-olds is the lowest of any age group.

Changing the Pattern

In most ways, Hudson (MA) High School is a typical U.S. high school. The students come from diverse socioeconomic and cultural backgrounds. Hudson is an industry-based community and one-third of its population is of Portuguese decent. Each year we enroll students who do not speak English. Like most high schools, the academic pressures to further strengthen our academic curriculum and increase state test scores, SAT scores, and AP test scores are significant. To enhance academic performance, we've placed a major emphasis on academic rigor in our courses; extended the school day; shifted to a semester-based block schedule; expanded the number of AP and other advanced courses; and created new learning opportunities through the Virtual High School, school-to-career programs, and cocurricular academic programs. As a result we have seen a steady improvement in student performance.

We have also restructured Hudson's curriculum, teaching practices, and organizational structure to better enable students to become effective citizens. Our goal is not only to graduate students who have solid academic skills but also to help students develop an ethic of service and civic responsibility and an ability for the thoughtful questioning and investigation necessary for informed civic participation. We believe that to accomplish this, students must gain a deep understanding of civic concepts and directly experience civic engagement. They must experience themselves as part of a democratic community that values their voice. As a result, we have created a core ninth-grade course in civics; integrated service-learning across the curriculum; restructured the school into smaller clusters; provided time in the weekly schedule to engage all students in school governance; and created a community council that represents students, faculty members, and administrators.

Civics Instruction

We can't realistically expect students to develop a sense of civic responsibility if they don't understand the core institutions that preserve democracy or the fact that democracy is a messy, challenging system of debate, negotiation, and compromise in which addressing almost any issue takes time, persistence, and commitment. Therefore, we began by helping students develop this knowledge base.

We reorganized our ninth-grade into two four-person teams with a core curriculum. At the center of this curriculum is a combined English and social studies course that focuses on civic judgment and engagement. English and social studies teachers collaborate on a year-long course that explores what an individual's responsibility is for creating a just society. The course begins with the study of civic institutions through text material and fiction, then examines what motivates participation and commitment.

Using the Facing History and Ourselves curriculum, students study the root causes of the Holocaust and similar acts of genocide to examine how genocide can become state policy. The curriculum confronts young people with the human potential for passivity, complicity, and destructiveness and helps them understand the need for vigilance and commitment. It sensitizes them to injustice, inhumanity, suffering, and the abuse of power. It is also academically challenging and helps complicate students' thinking so they do not accept simple answers to complex problems. The curriculum develops their perspective-taking and social-reasoning abilities and students emerge with a greater sense of moral responsibility and a greater commitment to participate in making a difference.

(I thaught, this thread was about voting.)

Yes, we have here a different nationality law (ius sanguines) to that in the USA (ius soli).

On the other hand, in most states, anyone from 16 years onwards can vote in local (and state) elections, regardless of her/his nationality.

I suppose, I couldn't do that in the USA, even if I lived in a municipality for 50 years, correct?

Oh, and everyone has the right to vote - which means nothing with queueing up at register offices or so, but just going straight to the voting place.

Re: BBB


What would you consider replacing in the school rooms? We have enough subjects that are not needed that we could easily replace some of them with a proper Civics class. Of course it should be a non-biased civics class but knowing the school systems now adays it would be anything but non-biased.