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Creationism is false

 
 
Reply Thu 4 Jan, 2007 06:48 pm
There is a war raging on, not between nations or between cultures, but between ideas. This war is being fought between two incredibly power players, Creationists and Scientists. Creationists weapon of choice is The Holy Bible, while the Scientists weapons of choice is logic, reason and rationality. Ever since Darwin's book "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection", religion and science have been in direct conflict. Since those days however, science has made stunning breakthroughs and leaps forward, but Creationists still stand their ground and hold their beliefs.

Creationism is a religious doctrine; Evolution is a scientific theory. In scientific terms, the word "Theory" means:

Quote:


~Dictionary.com
A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.


A "Doctrine" means:

Quote:



~Dictionary.com
A principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief, as by a religious, political, scientific, or philosophic group; dogma.


Creationism is just believed in, without any prove or attempt at proving its validity what so ever. While the scientific method actually observes, experiments, and concludes from facts what the mechanism that drives natural forces are. Creationism is just purely illogical to think that it is a plausible method for the development of the Universe, the Earth, and Life.

Creationists believe in a literal translation of the Book of Genesis, which states:
Arrow The creation of the Universe, Earth, the Sun, the Moon, and all Living Creatures was created by God in 6-literal-days.
Arrow There was a Great Flood that followed which covered the entire globe with water, and this killed all living life-forms that were not present on the Ark.
Arrow They conclude from this that fossils are merely the remains of those creatures that died during the Great Flood
Arrow The Earth is very young. Probably only 10,000 years old.

Creationists sometimes use our own scientific theories against us, or at least so they think. I've heard one person argue that Evolution violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics, which deals with Entropy. This law states that over time, in an isolated system, the system will change to become more random and less complex. Since man is much more complex then, lets say, Australopithecus africanus (one of our first descendents), this totally violates the proven scientific theory. First off, I can only say that the Laws of Thermodynamics applies to non-living things and that it clearly states that it must be an isolated system. Earth is not an isolated system. Creationists have even gone so far as to prove that Evolution is a mathematical and statistically impossibility. The math was never validated and proved nothing of the sort.

Evolution and Big Bang (two of the most controversial scientific ideas currently) can actually provide a plausible and logical explanation on the origins of the Universe, Galaxies, Stars Planets and Life.

In a nutshell, Big Bang states:
Arrow The Universe, 13.7 ± 0.2 billion years old as shown by Hubble's Law: v = Hd, where H is the Hubble constant = 0.022ms-1lightyear-1.
Arrow The Universe experienced massive expansion due to various factors and causes, probably one being an anti-force repulsion. This expansion created space-time. As time elapsed forward, the Universe cooled.
Arrow The Universe at 10^-43s, all four fundamental forces (gravity, electro-magnetic, strong and weak nuclear) were unified. The temperature at this time would be about 1032K (K = Kelvins).
Arrow The Universe at 10-33s, the Universe further cools and the Gravitational force (Graviton is the exchange particle, which is massless. It has yet to be found.) differentiates from the GUT (Grand Unified Theory). Later, as the Universe continues to cool more, heat energy transforms into mass and the Strong Nuclear force differentiated from the electroweak force (electro-magnetic and weak nuclear combination). The temperature at this time would be about 1028K.
Arrow The Universe experienced what is called Cosmic Inflation, which is an exponential growth of space-time.
Arrow Because of Einstein's famous equation, E = mc2 (E = energy, m = mass, c = speed of light), the heat being lost caused mass to be formed, in the form of the Gluon first (exchange particle of the Strong Nuclear force), and later baryons and anti-baryons, which are a family of subatomic particles that include Protons and Neutrons. This was called Baryogenesis.
Arrow The Universe at 10-12s, the Universe continues to cool, and the electroweak force breaks apart, and turns into electro-magnetic force (photon is the exchange particle) and weak nuclear force (W and Z bosons are the exchange particles). The temperature at this time would be roughly 1015K.
Arrow A Supersymmetry breakup occurred, in which superpartners were no longer equal in numbers.
Arrow The Universe at 10-6s to 10-2s, the Universe cools enough to produce Hadrons. The Universe cools to a temperature roughly 1012K.
Arrow The Universe at 1s after the Big Bang cools enough for the first atomic nuclei to form. The temperature at this time is approximately 109K.
Arrow The Universe continued to cool, and as it did, Hydrogen and Helium atoms would form the first stars. These stars were massive and lasted only 2-3 million years. The nuclear fusion that takes place within the star fused Hydrogen atoms into Helium. When the Hydrogen fuel runs out, the star continues to fuse Helium atoms. This process continues until the star fuses Iron atoms. When this happens, the star dies. They explode with spectacular energy, fusing the remaining atoms into all the other 92 naturally occurring elements. Over the course of billions of years, the concentration of these elements grows, until approximately 5 billion years ago, the concentration of these elements (hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, plus others) were favorable to begin organic evolution.
Arrow The Universe is not only expanding, but doing so at an accelerating rate. This has been shown in recent mathematical and astronomical measurements of the brightness of supernovas. It has been proposed that it has to do with some form of Dark Energy.
Note: These numbers vary from source to source because of inaccuracies in calculations due to a lack of having a "Theory of Everything". These numbers do not vary much between texts and scientific articles/journals.

Evolution states the following:
Arrow Most species remain unchanged (with minor variations) over long periods of time, for then of thousands or even millions of years.
Arrow Most new species probably evolved when a segment of species (a population) becomes isolated from the rest.
Arrow Speciation (formation of a new species) occurs relatively rapidly probably in a meter of only a few thousand years or less, from the isolated population. The simultaneous development of many new species in this manner is termed adaptive radiation.
Arrow Speciation occurs through genetic variation and natural selection.
Arrow Sources of genetic variation are shuffling of chromosomes prior to fertilization, recombination during fertilization, mutation, migration and genetic drift.

Now, most Creationists will stand aside on this one and say that since the Bible does not mention the exact age of the Earth, we cannot determine its true age. Well, I'm sorry guys, but the Earth has to have an age, and through radiometric dating, we have determined that the Age of the Earth is 4.55 billion years old. Not the 6000 - 10,000 years as believed by most Creationists.

There is plenty of evidence for the Big Bang, and many scientists believe this is the best explanation. If you were to look at galaxies right now, you would notice two things. First, you would notice that it is moving. Not only rotating, but actually moving in a specific direction. Second, you would notice that most galaxies (95%) are redder then what you would expect. The redness comes from the Doppler effect, which can be seen here:

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/1809/dopplermk1.jpg
This shows that an object moving away from us would look like it was redder in color.

As said before, we notice that almost all the galaxies are red-shifted, which would mean that they are all moving away from us. We also notice that they are all moving in an outwardly direction. This would be consistent with Big Bang Theory.

Also, scientists have actually created the electroweak force exchange particle, which would be consistent with Big Bang theory. They have proven that at high temperatures, the force exchange particles are indistinguishable. They haven't yet formed the GUT (electro-magnetic, weak nuclear and strong nuclear combination), but its currently being worked on.

We have also made great achievements in radiocosmology, where we can see the background radiation of microwaves and radiowaves. These pictures show that the early universe was not a uniform and even surface, but rather had slightly denser regions, which would later form stars and planets.

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/3182/radiationon3.jpg
Picture of background microwave radiation taken by WMAP. Red spots shows places of higher density, while blue is places of lower density.

We have also witnessed the birth of stars, in the Eagle Nebular, where we can see gaseous cloud surrounding several proto-stars or birth-stars.
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/2629/starsgb5.jpg

Of course Genesis has something to say about this. According to Genesis, the Earth and Heavens (universe) were created first. God would later create the Stars, Sun and Moon on the fourth day.

Quote:


~Genesis 1:
Quote:


~Genesis 6:

15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. [g] 16 Make a roof for it and finish [h] the ark to within 18 inches of the top. Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks.


This only gives them a volume of 450 X 75 X 45 = 1518750 ft3. It is impossible to fit all terrestrial creatures. What about the plants? They can't survive under that much water can they? The answer is no. The amount of light that would have reached the bottom would have been non-existent.
The Flood itself doesn't make sense.

Quote:


~Genesis 7:
Quote:


~Genesis 8:

1 But God remembered Noah and all the wild animals and the livestock that were with him in the ark, and he sent a wind over the earth, and the waters receded. 2 Now the springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed, and the rain had stopped falling from the sky. 3 The water receded steadily from the earth. At the end of the hundred and fifty days the water had gone down, 4 and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat. 5 The waters continued to recede until the tenth month, and on the first day of the tenth month the tops of the mountains became visible.


Mount. Ararat is 5,137 meters tall. Since this is the resting place for Noah, lets assume that the water only covered a large majority of the mountain. In the original Bible, they used a unit called a cubit, which is 45cm. In the bible, it says that the water rose 15 cubits. Therefore, 15 cubits = 22.5ft = 6.858m.

Quote:


~Genesis 7:

The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet.



Vsphere = (4/3)&pi r3
&bull r = radius (meters)

Vearth = (4/3)&pi re3
Vearth = (4/3)&pi (6.37x106m)3
Vearth = 1.082696932x1021m3

Vflood = (4/3)&pi rf3
Vflood = (4/3)&pi (6.37x106m + 6.858m)3
Vflood = 1.082700429x1021m3

Vwater = Vflood - Vearth
Vwater = 1.082700429x1021 - 1.082696932x1021m3
Vwater = 3.4973579x1015m3
1m3 = 1000L
Vwater = 3.4973579x1018L
Vwater per day = 8.74339475x1016L per day

That is an astronomically unrealistic volume of water that had to have created the literal Great Flood. However, the water required is only 3,497,357.9km3, and there is enough water locked up in the glaciers to provide this volume of water, there is no account of massive amounts of glacial heating or an increase of global temperature to do this (amount of water in glaciers provided by USGS = 24,064,000km3). About 15% of the glaciers would have had to melt, and this is just irrational. The Biblical account of the flood also said it rained for 40 days. Melting glaciers would not account for the raining. However there has been evidence of a huge flood catastrophe around this time, but not on the scale of Noah's Flood.

Evolution however is a much more ferocious battleground. As said before, Creationists believe that God created the known-universe in 6-days and that Man was created in Gods image and likeness. Man did not descend from apes.

Quote:


~Genesis 1:

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.


It is unanimous that all Creationists would say that God is a perfect higher being. Yet if we were to look at our own Human Physiology and Biology, we are far from perfect. Here are some examples:

Arrow The Human eye... even though it seems to work fine... there are still several places where it can improve...
1) The Optic Nerve uses a design with a hole. That means that there is a blind spot in the middle of the eye.
2) The veins that transmit blood to the eye are in front of the optic nerve. This distorts the image and creates a less-sharp image.
3) the Retina and Choroids are not attached together. This can lead to retinal tearing and blindness.
We posses Vestigial Body parts. These are parts that serve no function in the body what so ever. Why should we have these things?? They are just a "waste" of energy to produce during development. They are leftovers from evolutionary development.
We also posses genes that (for one reason or another) we cannot find out their purpose. Now that could be either we actually haven't discovered it yet... or it doesn't actually have a purpose.

We are not physiologically and biologically perfect beings. I won't even go into why we aren't psychologically perfect either.

Not only does Genesis not give a correct or even logical account for the evolution of life, but it fails to provide any explanation into other events (mass extinctions, extra-terrestrial life, etc)

There is massive evidence for evolution:
Arrow For one, evolution can be seen and has been observed. Mosquitoes are pests, and a pesticide named DDT was used to kill them off. At first it works, it killed a lot of them. But they later returned, DDT resistant. The DDT provided an environment where DDT resistant genes were favorable over non-DDT resistant genes. The same thing can be seen in bacteria and antibiotics.
Arrow It has been witness that radiation (whether it be from solar sources or from nuclear sources) cause Gene Mutation. Cosmic radiation is able to mutate genes.
Arrow There are enormous amounts of Anthropological, Biological, Geological and Paleontological evidence for it. Transition organisms can be seen everywhere (however not all have been found). Creationists would just tell you that all those primitive Primates found or Archaeopteryx are just fakes. Well, they are lying to you, just like they have been lying for over 2000 years.
Arrow Homologues Structures can be found between creatures. These body parts are of similar origins, structure and development. (e.g.) four-limbed vertebrates.
Arrow Vestigial Body Parts. They are useless, usually reduced body arts that are well developed and functional in related species.
Arrow There are every close similarities between species of various types. This is known as "Evo-Devo". The embryos of different species, genus, families, etc look similar. This is because all organisms came from similar ancestry.
Arrow There have been experiments that show that from inorganic compounds, one can make organic compounds from only the ingredients available on the Primordial Earth back ~4 billion years ago. Stanley Miller and Harold Urey used an apparatus with similar atmospheric conditions that was stimulated with lightning to produce amino acids and proteins.
Hydrogen Sulfide (low amounts) + Hydrogen Chloride (low amounts) + Hydrogen + Nitrogen + Water Vapor + Carbon Dioxide + Carbon Monoxide (low concentration) Electricity = Amino Acids + other Organic Compounds
Arrow The behavior and psychology between animals are very similar. We all seek the same thing. This can be mathematically proven through "Evolutionary Game Theory".
Arrow We have found extremophiles, which are microbial organisms that can live in extreme conditions (heat, cold, acidity, salinity, etc). These are most likely the type of microbes that lived on the Early Earth back 3.86 billion years ago.
Arrow Genetic variations between species show that we all are very closely related to one another. Between humans and chimps, we are 99.4% similar. Between Humans and Gorillas, we are 99% similar. Between Humans and Baboons, we are 98% similar. Between Humans and a Dog, we are 90% similar. Between a Human and a Horse, we are 88% similar. Between a Human and a mouse, we are 85% similar. Between a Human and a Chicken, we are 72% similar. Between Humans and a Tapeworm, we are 65-70% similar. Between a Human and a Banana, we are 40-50% similar. This is not a coincidence, this is because we all are connected within the evolutionary tree, and we all have common ancestry with every creature on this planet. We all evolved from that single cell life-form 3.86 billion years ago, so we all most share similar genes.
Note: Some of these numbers vary between sources, this is due to the error in measuring the genetic similarities between the two compared species. The number do not vary by much, and are within error. Therefore, the facts that are provided are still valid.

Evolution can also provide how the living organisms came to exist. One hypothesis is that the organic compounds that were present in the Primordial Earth were derived from chemicals and atmospheric conditions present. Either they grew in the Primordial Ocean (near Black Smokers) or deep within its Primordial Crust, we don't know. Another is that a comet or asteroid containing organic compounds crashed into the Earth. There is some evidence for this in looking at Carbonaceous Chondrites (high water and organic compound content)

Hominid evolution is by far the most controversial subject that faces the Creation vs. Science battleground. According the Genesis, we were created from mud in the image and likeness of God. According the Science, we are descendant of primates and early Hominids. Human Evolution can be traced as far as the Oligocene (33.7 million years ago). Study of Hominid Skulls show that one of the first primates that were bipedal or approaching bipedalism were Australopithecus afarensis, dubbed "Lucy" who lived approximately 4 - 3 million years ago in the Pliocene. Homo habilis, the first in the Homo genus lived approximately 2 million years ago, near the end of the Pliocene, and lived in South and East Africa. Homo habilis was one of the first known primates that used tools. Later would come Homo erectus who lived approximately 1.8 million years ago, during the Pleistocene, and lived in Asia. Homo ergaster is considered a subspecies of H. erectus and lived during the same time, but in Africa. Later, hominids would enter Europe, and Homo neanderthalensis would come into being, who lived 250,000 years ago during the Pleistocene. Many anthropologists and paleontologists believe that Homo neanderthalensis would later evolve into Homo heidelbergensis and that's who we have descendent from.

http://img330.imageshack.us/img330/9863/skullchartrl8.jpg

Note: This Human Evolutionary tree is subject to change, as more discoveries are made in locating fossilized human remains and further advances are made in genetics.

This is definitely a hot topic debate, and it was raged on as long as religion and science has existed. The only difference today is that we have new tools at our disposal. In conclusion, don't believe in Creationism. It is illogical and irrational and holds no merit when it comes to any serious scientific work and research (even though Creationists have cleverly called it "Creation Science"). The universe is not illogical and irrational as science has determined through rigorous experiments and observations that have been retested, revisited and peer-reviewed.

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/8092/methodskl6.jpg

Sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Darwin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_thermodynamics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creationism
http://www.creationscience.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiometric_dating
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Big_Bang
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_evolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_force
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebular_hypothesis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_geology
http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/earthhowmuch.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo-devo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller-Urey_experiment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_life
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremophiles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonaceous_Chondrite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3042781.stm
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/12/05/MN153329.DTL&type=science
http://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/ce/apes.html
http://health.dailynewscentral.com/content/view/197/62

Sources from University Geology, Paleontology, Anthropology and Geographical courses:

http://courses.eas.ualberta.ca/eas103/History%20of%20the%20Earth.pdf
http://courses.eas.ualberta.ca/eas103/Encountering%20the%20Anti-Evolutionists.pdf
http://courses.eas.ualberta.ca/eas103/BeyondtheEvolutionvsCreationDebate.pdf
http://www.as.ua.edu/ant/bindon/ant270/lectures/hominids1.pdf
Physics: Sixth Edition - Cutnell & Johnson
The Earth Through Time: Seventh Edition - Harold L. Levin
Invertebrate Paleontology and Evolution: Fourth Edition - E. N. K. Clarkson

That was incredibly long, I appologize. If anyone took the time to read all of it, or even parts of it, than opinions are welcome.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 9,359 • Replies: 243
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jan, 2007 07:32 pm
Welcome to a2k

Yes, that was very long. I only skimmed it for now. Maybe I'll read it tomorrow, but right now my eyes are too strained from sitting in front of the computer for too long.

But it seems to me you have done thorough work. It will be interesting to see what kind of responses you get, if any. The harsh truth is that people tend to become discouraged by long posts.
0 Replies
 
NickFun
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jan, 2007 07:39 pm
You mean...God didn't make man in his own image??? We evolved from APES??? The world is older than 10,000 years??? The Grand Canyon was not created in 15 minutes??? Damn! I'll have tio write all of this down.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jan, 2007 07:41 pm
Re: Creationism is false
Yeah it's a long post. I didn't read all yet but I will.

It's probably better however for both discussion participants and spectators if you try to address 1 or 2 issues at a time. Otherwise, not only is the original post long, but the various replies will inevitably NOT address each issue in the original post and so the thread is quite difficult both to participate in and to follow as an observer.

That said, I'll address an issue you raised.

Pte Darkness wrote:
Creationists sometimes use our own scientific theories against us, or at least so they think. I've heard one person argue that Evolution violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics, which deals with Entropy. This law states that over time, in an isolated system, the system will change to become more random and less complex. Since man is much more complex then, lets say, Australopithecus africanus (one of our first descendents), this totally violates the proven scientific theory. First off, I can only say that the Laws of Thermodynamics applies to non-living things and that it clearly states that it must be an isolated system. Earth is not an isolated system.


Name an isolated natural system.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jan, 2007 07:49 pm
The entire universe percieved as a singularity, as one system, can be said to be an isolated natural system.

Simply because it wouldn't make sense to talk of something outside of it.
0 Replies
 
baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jan, 2007 07:53 pm
I read (and replied to) your post entitled "Proof of Existence" where you claimed to be unsure of what you believe in.

Then I see your laundry list of definitions, references et al on this thread where you clearly claim to be against creationism! :wink:

Although I am now clearly confused as to what you really believe in - I do enjoy the subject matter and will continue to play, despite the deceit.

The fact that you took so much time and expended so much energy to post that plethora of information speaks volumes! I did not read it, nor will I. I did skim over it and feel that I have the gist of what you're attempting to say/prove/etc.

You say: "Creationism is just believed in, without any prove or attempt at proving its validity what so ever. While the scientific method actually observes, experiments, and concludes from facts what the mechanism that drives natural forces are. Creationism is just purely illogical to think that it is a plausible method for the development of the Universe, the Earth, and Life...."

As a creationist (physics major) Shocked I only have a few thoughts:

1. The Big Bang happened.
2. Evolution happens.

My questions for you to scientifically prove:

A) Why did the BB happen?
B) What is the origin of life?
C) If you were taken from your Mom at birth - would she love you?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jan, 2007 07:58 pm
Cyracuz,

Thanks for your reply.

There are those who postulate the universe as an open system, possibly as one of many 'universes', are there not?

Even if this were not so, (since 'the universe' is the only isolated natural system that you mentioned), are you saying that the ONLY natural system that the 2nd Law applies to is the universe when looked at as a whole; and that the 2nd Law DOES NOT apply to any natural system within the universe? Or are there others?
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jan, 2007 08:00 pm
Quote:
A) Why did the BB happen?
B) What is the origin of life?
C) If you were taken from your Mom at birth - would she love you?


A) Because god couldn't keep his sh!t together.
B) A dualistic notion that is entirely human
C) If you were separated from your mother at birth - would you love her?

Twisted Evil
0 Replies
 
Pte Darkness
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jan, 2007 08:05 pm
baddog1 wrote:
I read (and replied to) your post entitled "Proof of Existence" where you claimed to be unsure of what you believe in.

Then I see your laundry list of definitions, references et al on this thread where you clearly claim to be against creationism! :wink:

Although I am now clearly confused as to what you really believe in - I do enjoy the subject matter and will continue to play, despite the deceit.


Hahahaha Yes, it's true, it is deceiving. What I had meant to say, as religion in a whole, I am not sure what to believe in. For instance, I believe certain aspects about certain religions, but have not found a whole religion in which I believe in. The parts dealing with religion that I don't agree with I have named, and this is just one of them Laughing
Of course, there is still so much to learn and study in relation to religion, and there are many aspects of it I don't understand, (Of course, it would be foolish to say anyone knows everything about all religions)
In this, I attempt to make a case that Creationism is wrong, but am still unsure if God in general exists.
To be honest though, I can admit I am more against the idea of Christianity than some other religions, but I still take what I like from many religions as a foundation for myself.
0 Replies
 
baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jan, 2007 08:07 pm
Cyracuz wrote:
Quote:
A) Why did the BB happen?
B) What is the origin of life?
C) If you were taken from your Mom at birth - would she love you?


A) Because god couldn't keep his sh!t together.
B) A dualistic notion that is entirely human
C) If you were separated from your mother at birth - would you love her?

Twisted Evil


A) Well - at least you Very Happy acknowledge his existence.
B) As is science.
C) If my faith allowed.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jan, 2007 08:08 pm
real life

I am not saying what you suggest. Truth to tell, I am not qualified to say anything about the laws of thermodynamics.

But I know abstract ideas, and I do not really believe there is such a thing as 'random'. There are just variables unknown to us.

And as far as I can tell, nature is an ongoing interaction of (what we percieve as) many systems. No single system operates entirely isolated from the rest. Not even systems that we create and run in simulated isolation on computers or in labs. There are countless sub-systems that have to be there to run such simulations.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jan, 2007 08:11 pm
Baddog

I acknowledge IT'S existence. Further, I will go so far as to say that it is the ONLY thing that exists.

But do not think for a minute that what I mean when I say 'god' is even remotely close to what you mean when you use the word.

Biased religion is not adequate for me to find my peace in the world. If it is for you that is a good thing, and I am not offended by that.
0 Replies
 
shewolfnm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jan, 2007 08:20 pm
Interesting..


I am only writing in the thread though to make a bookmark.

As a general rule, I stay out of the religious threads..

but this one could prove to be verry interesting..
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jan, 2007 08:20 pm
Cyracuz wrote:
real life

I am not saying what you suggest. Truth to tell, I am not qualified to say anything about the laws of thermodynamics.

But I know abstract ideas, and I do not really believe there is such a thing as 'random'. There are just variables unknown to us.

And as far as I can tell, nature is an ongoing interaction of (what we percieve as) many systems. No single system operates entirely isolated from the rest. Not even systems that we create and run in simulated isolation on computers or in labs. There are countless sub-systems that have to be there to run such simulations.


I agree that no natural system on Earth is isolated from the rest.

That is why I maintain that the commonly used evolutionary interpretation of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics as ONLY applying to 'isolated' systems is false.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jan, 2007 08:25 pm
It seems so to me too, Eorl.

But my guess is that it's because we've missed something. Perhaps the term 'isolated' is used in a specific way.

Maybe mr. Darkness can clarify. He seems to have done his homework.
0 Replies
 
baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jan, 2007 08:42 pm
Cyracuz wrote:
Baddog

I acknowledge IT'S existence. Further, I will go so far as to say that it is the ONLY thing that exists.

But do not think for a minute that what I mean when I say 'god' is even remotely close to what you mean when you use the word.

Biased religion is not adequate for me to find my peace in the world. If it is for you that is a good thing, and I am not offended by that.


"IT" is fine with me - it's a start!!! :wink:

Please be careful in your assumptions - you do not know what I mean when I say 'god' nor do I know what you mean. I am likewise not offended by your choice - whatever that may be.
0 Replies
 
Pte Darkness
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jan, 2007 08:43 pm
The way I saw it was that Entropy is the tendency of an isolated energy system to run down; systems go from a higher to a lower state of order. Evolution promotes that organisms move from a lesser state of organization to a higher state, or up hill (microbes to man) and therefore is diametrically opposed to, and breaks this Second Law of Thermodynamics.
However, with outside forces acting upon everything, the second law would only apply to systems fundamentally isolated from all other systems. As was said, there are many uncountable subsystems working on every other system and subsystem so pure isolation is not possible, (Unless looked upon as the universe being one whole system) therefore evolution and the second law of thermodynamics do not correlate.
If there was ever a way to fully isolate a system, things would digress, become more basic and simple. Since this is not possible, evolution remains a plausible theory which has yet to run into any brickwalls, if you will.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jan, 2007 08:55 pm
wikipedia:

"In thermodynamics, an isolated system, as contrasted with a open system, is a physical system that does not interact with its surroundings. It obeys a number of conservation laws: its total energy and mass stay constant. They cannot enter or exit, but can only move around inside. An example is in the study of spacetime, where it is assumed that asymptotically flat spacetimes exist"
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jan, 2007 08:55 pm
Re: Creationism is false
Pte Darkness wrote:
That was incredibly long, I appologize. If anyone took the time to read all of it, or even parts of it, than opinions are welcome.

Are you doing a thesis?
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jan, 2007 08:57 pm
Accidentally hit submit before I was done with the post.

After that quote from wikipedia this was the intended comment:

It seems that this notion of an isolated system may be something not found in nature, but some theoretical idea yet to be confirmed...
0 Replies
 
 

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