Reasons God Doesn't Exist

Good to see you Frank Apisa. I miss your postings, they almost always guarantee me that I'll have to think and write my thoughts out clearly.

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Chumly wrote:

sunlover wrote:
thunder32 wrote:
Please give logical (short, if possible) explanations as to why a perfect God either does not exist, or exist as common perceptions of God.

This is quite open-ended, so post whatever you feel relating to the general subject.

If God is within us, as Jesus said, then we are God. We are perfect, or at least have that potential. Then, the question becomes How do we reach that potential?
Through technology, pehaps!

Wow! Chumly's back! The coffee's cold, but I can get another. . .

Frank Apisa wrote:

I see absolutely no reason to suppose there is a God or that it is more likely that there is a God than that there are no gods.

I also see absolutely no reason to suppose there are no gods or that it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one.

Don't know why you folks go through this crap so oftenwhen the reality of the matter is as apparent as the nose on Jimmy Durante's face.

And Frank! . . . What? Were you guys just waitin' until I wasn't around for a while. . . ?

Seriously. It's good to have you back. I was getting kind of bored with the board. Hope you are both well and in one piece.

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Frank! Welcome back! Look how far we've gotten while you've been away!! Laughing

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Thanks for the kind words; the trip down the wet coast was dandy, but alas the wife was so fried from packing and organizing details, I did not dare bring up the suggestion of stopping to see you (lest I be cut off from holiday sex for distorting her presumably well laid plans), even though she was (tacitly) aware of our original intent, perhaps in a way not wholly dissimilar to your views on original sin?

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Sturgis, Neo, Eorl

good to be back.

I will make a concerted effort to be reasonable rather than confrontational for confrontational's sakebut don't take any bets offered unless you get real good odds.

I am nursing a broken shoulder right nowan encounter with the boards in an ice skating rink. Goddam boards were a lot harder than they look on televisionand my 70 year old shoulder came in a distant second best.

Naturally, I'm gonna be offering the agnostic take on these issuesand we'll see where that leads.

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If there is a "God" and he wanted us to know that he is real why doesn't he do something like appear before us in a golden chariot or something? I believe there are orange rabbits living below the surface of Mars. Prove to me that they don't.

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Orange rabbis?

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Orange Rabbis are another theory. There may be millions of orange rabbis under the surface of Mars. There may also be large three toed gremlins that eat people. Prove to me that these things don't exist!

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Most of the gods throughout human history have been less than perfect, reflecting the flaws of their creators. Like the rest, the God depicted in the Bible proved to be imperfect from the start. His first attempt at creation turned out so bad that he killed millions of people and animals and tried again (note that it is impossible for created beings to be responsible for their inherent flaws. Ancient people had no knowledge of DNA and could not have altered their own, nor that of animals. Either God was a lousy engineer or he wanted us to suffer.). He was demanding, jealous, and unjust. He condoned slavery and misogyny, discriminated against handicapped people and slaughtered innocent children. I don't see how anyone could read the Bible and still believe that God was perfect or even "good."

A perfect god would not create genetically defective babies who would suffer and die before reaching the age of reason.

A perfect god would not allow its minions to prey on children, fleece their followers or incite hatred.

A perfect god would not create viruses, parasites, and insects to torment innocent animals and people.

A perfect god would not create millions of trial species that would have to be exterminated and replaced with successively modified versions until it was satisfied.

A perfect god would not give different rules to each group of people and induce some of them to persecute or kill anyone who believed otherwise.

But there is no reason why a creator must or should be perfect. There is only one possible "perfect" deity. There are zillions of possible ways in which a god could be flawed. Odds are that your god is NOT the perfect one.

Even if a specific deity claimed to be perfect, how would we know whether it was telling us the truth? There is no force in the universe that could compel a supreme being to act ethically, and no reason for it to develop ethics in the first place. It could be an egotistical liar that just wanted us to believe that it was perfect.

A singular God would not have empathy, since it is one of the emotions that could only have evolved in a social context. It may enjoy tormenting us. It may not realize that we have feelings. It may not care. It might have moved on after setting things in motion.

One thing I can be absolutely certain of from observing life on earth: our creator was not perfect.

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NickFun wrote:

If there is a "God" and he wanted us to know that he is real why doesn't he do something like appear before us in a golden chariot or something? I believe there are orange rabbits living below the surface of Mars. Prove to me that they don't.

Are the signs on this Earth not evident enough for you?

Does man not see that it is We Who created him from sperm? Yet, behold! He stands forth as an open adversary! And he makes comparisons for Us, and forgets his own origin and Creation. He says, "Who can give life to dry bones and decomposed ones (at that)? Say, "He will give them life Who created them for the first time! For He is Well-versed in every kind of creation." (Surah Ya Sin: 77-79)

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Bertrand Russell addresses this question directly

http://www.cfpf.org.uk/articles/religion/br/br_god.html

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aperson wrote:

real life wrote:
Eorl wrote:
One simply reaches an age where childish fairy tales must be put aside, and one must face the reality of the universe as a natural phenomenom. It is true of a child, and is true of the human race as a whole.

It angers me that anyone would cheapen the glorious beauty of the universe (especially biology!) by presuming that some magician simply "poof"-ed it all into place.

It's like the whole natural history of the universe is a giant jigsaw puzzle, and we only have some of the peices. Every year we find more and more, but NOT ONCE have we EVER found a peice that clearly belonged to a different puzzle.

The Cassini-Huygens probe recently explored various parts of the Saturnian system and found many surprising and wonderful things. Sadly though, nothing magical, nothing unnatural, nothing to indicate that it was made with a wand or a spell or a magic word.

Just one "monolith on the moon" is all it would take to shake us to the core. Theists are just ignoring this obvious fact of life.

So since you've never 'seen' evidence of the 'unseen', i.e. you haven't observed any 'natural' evidence of the 'supernatural', then it obviously cannot be, right?

BTW have you ever heard the color green, or smelled the light from the sun? I wonder why not.

You are making up unnecessary extra factors, rl. Why? Because you are weak.

Sure I'm weak. And ugly too. But what difference does that make?

Does it not seem that if something were 'supernatural', that it is therefore, by definition, likely to be outside the realm of 'natural' observation?

So, just as you cannot smell light, or taste a sound.........how does one expect to 'observe' the 'supernatural', or to obtain empirical (observational) evidence of it?

Doesn't it strike you as an absurd objection to say that 'there is no empirical proof of the supernatural'?

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real life wrote:

Does it not seem that if something were 'supernatural', that it is therefore, by definition, likely to be outside the realm of 'natural' observation?

Sure that's why an omnipotent multidimensional anal suppository controlling all dog's bowel movements is just as plausible as your Christian god,

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real life wrote:

BTW have you ever heard the color green, or smelled the light from the sun? I wonder why not.

I would suggest that the "why not" will be your lack of imagination, or the limitation of your apprehension. It is well documented that people hear sounds and as a result see colors--it is known as Synesthesia

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Setanta wrote:

real life wrote:
BTW have you ever heard the color green, or smelled the light from the sun? I wonder why not.

I would suggest that the "why not" will be your lack of imagination, or the limitation of your apprehension. It is well documented that people hear sounds and as a result see colors--it is known as Synesthesia

Are you saying the Eorl is a synesthete?

If not, the answer to the question I asked Eorl

Quote:

have you ever heard the color green, or smelled the light from the sun?

would still be 'No'.

My point was not to deny the existence of green if he cannot hear it, or light if he can't smell it.

My point is that some things that exist, and may not be perceived within the confines of one, or several of our ordinary senses, are nonetheless real.

So is it possible that some things exist that cannot be be detected with ANY of our ordinary senses?

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Observation: Evidently, the Universe got along just fine for a long, long, long time before we came to be.

Observation: Evidently, Socio-religious constructs and god concepts are unique on this planet to humankind.

Observation: Evidently, we - humankind - sentient natives of the planet we now commonly call Terra or Earth - have a long and varied history of religio-social constructs and god concepts, some extant, some extinct, many contradictory, most if not all claiming primacy for themselves and declaring that the others be in error.

Observation: Evidently, societies and cultures subscribing to a mind-bogglingly broad assortment of essentially conflicting, exclusionary religio-social constructs and god concepts, and even to no religio-social construct or god concept, have appeared and thrived, often simultaneously, throughout history back even into prehistory and forward to the present day.

Observation: Evidently, one thing that safely may be said of religio-social constructs and god concepts is that there have been and are myriad religio-social constructs and god concepts strongly and foundationally at odds with one another.

Observation: Evidently, there exists no generally accepted, planetarilly universal religio-social construct or god concept, nor, evidently, has ever there been any such.

Observation: Evidently, that humankind in general or any humans in concert or individually might endorse or reject or might have endorsed or rejected any particular religio-social construct and/or god concept has had no discernable impact on the overall course of life on this planet nor on any other workings of the universe.

Given: From the above, we reasonably may deduce, by the evidence, it matters not to the planet on which we exist and/or its biosphere nor to the universe in which that planet exists which or even if any religio-social contruct or god concept to which we might or might not subscribe.

Occam's Razor Conclusion: Religio-social constructs and god concepts are unnecessary to the functioning either of this planet or of our universe as a whole, offering not answer but only needless, and irresolvable, complication and contradiction.

Note - this in no way is "proof", nor even assertion, that there be no god or gods; it merely demonstrates human belief or disbelief in a god or gods, as well as human subscription to or rejection of any religio-social construct, evidently be matters of no consequence to the function of this universe.

Coach Tripper SAID IT BEST

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Certainly a "thing" may exist of which we do not know, using our (enhanced) perceptions. However, you are playing a fast and loose game with meanings. If, as you are fond of pointing out, your "god" is supernatural, and cannot be perceived by our sensory apparatus (enhanced or otherwise), than your feeble question about hearing colors or smelling light is a meaningless exercise in your own terms. If the "thing" to which you refer that we are unable to perceive with our sensory apparatus is your "god," than you have introduced your "god" into the natural world by making of it a thing--and your "you can test the supernatural with natural means" argument is right out the window. You'd be better off to go back to your first cause argument--as fallible as that argument is, it is better than the word games and logic chopping you are engaged in now.

And, of course, we don't know if Eorl experiences synesthesia or not. Maybe he'll tell us.

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real life wrote:

My point is that some things that exist, and may not be perceived within the confines of one, or several of our ordinary senses, are nonetheless real.

So is it possible that some things exist that cannot be be detected with ANY of our ordinary senses?

Of course it is possible. Lots of things are possible. But some of them are so implausible (such as fairies dancing on my lawn by moonlight) that it would be silly to insist that they might be real.

My question is: if something cannot be detected and has no discernable effect on the world, why would people kill each other over whose unprovable beliefs about it are correct?

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real life wrote:

My point is that some things that exist, and may not be perceived within the confines of one, or several of our ordinary senses, are nonetheless real. So is it possible that some things exist that cannot be be detected with ANY of our ordinary senses?

Sure it is. Most of the electromagnetic spectrum. Electrons. Neutron stars. Gravity waves (that even proving a tough one for the most sophisticated instruments, let alone our sense of smell etc.) Dark matter. In fact of all that exists I would guess we can detect with our "ordinary" senses but a tiny fraction. But just because there "are more things in heaven and earth than meets the eye" it does not follow that any figment of imagination must exist and be real.

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real life wrote:

Eorl wrote:
One simply reaches an age where childish fairy tales must be put aside, and one must face the reality of the universe as a natural phenomenom. It is true of a child, and is true of the human race as a whole.

It angers me that anyone would cheapen the glorious beauty of the universe (especially biology!) by presuming that some magician simply "poof"-ed it all into place.

It's like the whole natural history of the universe is a giant jigsaw puzzle, and we only have some of the peices. Every year we find more and more, but NOT ONCE have we EVER found a peice that clearly belonged to a different puzzle.

The Cassini-Huygens probe recently explored various parts of the Saturnian system and found many surprising and wonderful things. Sadly though, nothing magical, nothing unnatural, nothing to indicate that it was made with a wand or a spell or a magic word.

Just one "monolith on the moon" is all it would take to shake us to the core. Theists are just ignoring this obvious fact of life.

So since you've never 'seen' evidence of the 'unseen', i.e. you haven't observed any 'natural' evidence of the 'supernatural', then it obviously cannot be, right?

No, wrong. Take aliens for instance. Never seen them, yet it is reasonable to assume, from the observable state of the universe, that they may (or may not) exist.

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Reasons God Doesn't Exist

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