Born Agains: where did you screw up?

real life wrote:

Chai Tea wrote:
real life wrote:
Chai Tea wrote:
In my experience, most born again women turn in vicious gossips.

Thanks for passing along your own vicious gossip.

Well, thanks for the sarcastic input dear.

Gossip is when you are spreading heresay.

I can attest to my personal experience. I damn near lost a job because some born again, because this was a small but overwhelmingly "good christian community"

Apparantly she saw me at the gym and said hello, but, unfortunately I had headphone on and didn't hear her. Instead of walking around to where I could see her ass and take off my headphones, instead she spread the word how unfriendly I was. This woman didn't work with me, but spread the word how "unfriendly and unchristian" I was, and she didn't think I should be in the position I was in.
Because the politics of the born agains was quite in charge where I worked, I was literally brought up in front of both my direct supervisor and the big boss "to explain myself"
I didn't even know what they were talking about.

Let's see, mmm....when a good christian woman invited me to go to church with her, and I told her I was going out of town that weekend (true), she spread it around that I was going off "drinking and sleeping around" every weekend...uh, definatley not true.

Oh, when I introduced my then fiance, now husband of 13 years to a third lovely born again, she quickly informed everyone I was "with" an "old man".....first off, So?
2nd off, I suppose "old" is a subjective term.

and then....there's YOU...accusing me of gossiping viciously....mmmm..hmmm.

see, it's gossip when you're not the one doing it.

I mean, gossip would be if I manufactured something about you....or anyone, to embellish a story and sway opinions.

My statement was based on my empirical experience.

Your experience was with a handful of people.

Your statement broadbrushed 'most born again women'.

What is gossip, if it is not exaggeration and vilification?

And if you didn't mean to sway opinions, I wonder why you posted it.

It's ok to broadbrush.....with a fine tooth comb.

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Jesus real life, give me a break.

do you think the incidents I mentioned are my entire life experience?

Would it make you happier if I posted a 5000 page post citing each an every instance of some born again overstepping the bounds?

I'm not going to argue/debate that there are born agains out there that are totally annoying and judgemental. I'm not going to get into the "well, that's just what I believe" or disecting every freaking word.

What are you telling me exactly? That beyond the couple of stories I related of what actually, certifiably happened to me, there has never been any time some born again behaved in the way I described?

You must think people live in a vacuum.

I honestly don't give a **** what other people believe, but I really don't want to hear about it from some random stranger who brings it up out of the clear blue sky. Ever heard of a time and a place? Do you imagine I, or others have never had an enjoyable discussion about beliefs, when it was in the proper context, meaning BOTH people wanted the discussion.

I wish I could remember something ebeth said the other day about people rights.

Something about your rights end where my nose begins.

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real life wrote:

What is gossip, if it is not exaggeration and vilification?

Answers-dot-com wrote:

gos·sip (gŏs'əp) n.

1. Rumor or talk of a personal, sensational, or intimate nature.
2. A person who habitually spreads intimate or private rumors or facts.
3. Trivial, chatty talk or writing.
4. A close friend or companion.
5. Chiefly British. A godparent.

There is absolutely no reason to assume that gossip entails exaggeration or vilification--although certainly it might. It does not, however, by definition entail exaggeration or vilification. As is so often the case, you make things up to attempt to support your vituperative thesis. You have no case--you lose.

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Setanta,

In context, I think that 'vicious gossip', which was the kind Chai Tea mentioned to start the discussion, would probably often be characterized by exaggeration and vilification.

Perhaps I should have repeated the adjective to make it clear that my comment was related to what she posted.

But you are correct, there are benign types of gossip as well. Thanks and hope you are having a great day.

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Where's the exaggeration?

I didn't exaggerate anything.

Vilify?

How did I do that when I was relating EXACTLY what happens/happened with no exaggeration?

You just can't get over someone telling it like it is, without sugar coating.

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Don't people engage in vicious gossip because they are jealous, in some way, of the one gossiped about?

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Not necessarily.

Sometimes they just seem annoyed.

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sunlover wrote:

Don't people engage in vicious gossip because they are jealous, in some way, of the one gossiped about?

Not in my case. I'm mostly likely to say mean, gossipy things about people I neither like or respect.

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Well, now that you mention it, that's what I just did a few posts back. Say mean things about people I don't like or respect, yeah. I'll just never get born again, doing that.

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slappy doo who-
We are born again of the Spirit, not the body.
To explain the SPIRIT, Jesus told Nicodemus to note the wind, how he could feel it blow on his face , but he cannot actually SEE it. Still He knows it is there.

We difine the action of wind by what we see it do and how this unseen motion 'acts'.

The Spirit of a BORN Again Christian, is like that. you can see his spirit by the Christian deeds, and you can see his spirit over come his flesh when he is victorious.

Yes there are times when human flesh and worldly desire tax the spirit so strongly , weak men fall in disgrace. Yet Christ does not leave them there. He faithfully hears their cry of weakness, and strengthens them as they yeild.

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See slappy?

Told ya.

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My definition of hell is to be stuck on a 7 hour plane trip sitting next to a born again, I know this from experience. At first I tried to be very polite, I explained nicely why I was not interested, I pretended to be asleep, I tried to ignore the chatter by staring out the window, and finally I just said : " I
can't believe you think a nice Jewish boy from the ancient past, who promised his followers he would be right back with a New World after his murder, is now going to arrive after 2000 years and save a bunch self-righteous know-it-alls. I don't think so." My seat mate responded with a good Christian mumble: "just you wait, you'll get what you deserve" and shut up the rest of the trip.

I know there are some lovely, good hearted people following the philosophy of Jesus, but I wish they all would practice their faith in terms of good works and forget about the nagging. We need another commandment that states "Thou Shall Not Nag About Religion".

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By the way, I think the Bush administration has done more to cast a bad light on Christianity than other factor in history, excluding perhaps the Inquisition. The fundamentalists have proven they should stay in their churches and out of our federal buildings.

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Green Witch wrote:

I know there are some lovely, good hearted people following the philosophy of Jesus, but I wish they all would practice their faith in terms of good works and forget about the nagging. We need another commandment that states "Thou Shall Not Nag About Religion".

Bravo Green Witch. That's it exactly.

There ARE really good people who follow every faith, and we should all respect their beliefs.

Also, in a nutshell you explained what I find so distressing about being with some born agains....that "just you wait, you'll get what you deserve." That thing of throwing threats around. It's not always in direct words, but in this change of expression, this slight look of distaste.

How phucking self righteous. I'm sure at some point in my life I made the mistake of saying back to a remark like that "What if YOU'RE the one who's wrong"?

Oh no, I'm right, it's the only way because that's what one person/god said, nevermind it's been said in a myriad of ways in a uncountable number of faiths...that, You're Wrong, I'm Right.

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Chai Tea wrote:

There ARE really good people who follow every faith, and we should all respect their beliefs.

Why? Why should I respect a set of beliefs which are patently absurd? Or harmful? Or dangerous? David Icke believes humans are controlled by giant green lizards. Why am I obliged to "respect" these views just because they are sincerely held? Catholics believe in transubstantiation, that the wine and bread actually is or rather becomes blood and flesh. Why should I respect that, when no-one has ever reported it tasting of anything other than wine and bread, and when its generally held that canibalism is a bad thing?

Some Shia'a Muslims indulge in a veritable orgy of self flagellation. Young boys are encouraged to cut themselves, the more blood the greater the expression of piety. I have no respect for that.

What about the animist cults in Africa who indulge in canibalism and child sacrifice? Where are the "good people" in those religions?

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Steve, no religion is entitled to a blank check or should be exempt from civil laws. We obviously can't have people performing virgin sacrifices, marrying little children, or invading other countries to start Armageddon under the justification of faith. However, peaceful, law abiding zealots like peaceful, law abiding atheists, should be left alone to follow their own paths. Free speech does not necessarily mean free action.

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I believe that Steve is making a distinction--and a valid one--between tolerating a belief and respecting the belief. I tolerate religious zealotry, so long as it does not engage in criminality--i don't respect religious zealotry, and no of no good reason to do so.

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Green Witch wrote:

However, peaceful, law abiding zealots like peaceful, law abiding atheists, should be left alone to follow their own paths.

Why should we leave them alone when they come back and bother us? Why should we tolerate the spread of superstitious nonsense? In particular, why do we allow brainwashing and abuse of children in the name of religion?

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Setanta wrote:

I believe that Steve is making a distinction--and a valid one--between tolerating a belief and respecting the belief. I tolerate religious zealotry, so long as it does not engage in criminality--i don't respect religious zealotry, and no of no good reason to do so.

I agree. You do not have to respect something that you might have to tolerate. I also agree that the tolerance should be extended only within the limits of civil law.

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Steve 41oo wrote:

Green Witch wrote:
However, peaceful, law abiding zealots like peaceful, law abiding atheists, should be left alone to follow their own paths.
Why should we leave them alone when they come back and bother us? Why should we tolerate the spread of superstitious nonsense? In particular, why do we allow brainwashing and abuse of children in the name of religion?

Steve, I'm also not a hugger of religion. However, I don't see it as all bad. Societies like North Korea, Russia and China have been doing their best to eradicate spiritual beliefs for decades, and I think they have gained nothing from it, and perhaps they've even lost much by this policy. I think religion can be a moral compass for the masses. I think the US (at it's best) is a generous nation because of it's spiritual core. Part of the "superstitious nonsense" that is preached is do unto to others as you would have them do unto to you. There is great beauty in many religious beliefs, it's not all burn the heretics and send the sinners to hell.
I think there is a big difference between the Taliban and a church that doles out emergency food packages, no questions asked.

I would never want to live in a world in which I had to follow a religion, and I admit often resent how our society can push faith into areas it does not belong. However, I do see many positive things come about because of people's religious beliefs. Hmmm, maybe one day we will have evolved enough not to need the dogma, but until then- if they stay off my doorstep I will stay off of theirs.

Just a last thought - superstition and brainwashing is not only the domain of religion. Many children are raised with silly ideas that have no religious foundation. How many children are told they must grow up to be a doctor, lawyer or CEO in order to be considered successful? How many children are raised to believe that you are what you own? Many children are abused- and religion plays no part in it. It's easy to point at religious belief and claim it's the core of all our problems, but I don't think the end of religion would be the end of human superstition, mind control or man's inhumanity to man.

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Born Agains: where did you screw up?

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