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AISHA'S AGE AND NEW PROPAGANDA AGAINST ISLAM....

 
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 03:26 pm
Grandmaster wrote:
It is not only arrogant but quite stupid to deny Islam's influence on modern science. At the time Islamic science, technology, architecture, astronomy, litrature flourished... Europe was in utter darkness. Islam - world's only pure and fastest growing religion - had brought civization to this world; unlike European colonists.

Islam is indeed the erfect religion....


It is indeed ignorant and stupid to deny Islam's influence upon modern science.


It is also both ignorant and stupid to deny that much of the "science" that is promoted by blind adherents of the faith as being accurately presented in the Koran is so much codswallop that any rational human being would identify as such.


You make the silly logical mistake of thinking that to deny the codswallop, and the claims of perfection that go with it, is also to deny the historical glories of Islam.


Time to renew them via the same spirit of tolerance, compassion and fearless intellectual inquiry that marked the apogee of Islamic culture?

This would, presumably, entail naming codswallop for what it is, whosoever's holy book or hate filled rantings it be in?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 03:29 pm
dlowan wrote:

Time to renew them via the same spirit of tolerance, compassion and fearless intellectual inquiry that marked the apogee of Islamic culture?

This would, presumably, entail naming codswallop for what it is, whosoever's holy book or hate filled rantings it be in?


What a bunny!
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 05:33 pm
Re: AISHA'S AGE AND NEW PROPAGANDA AGAINST ISLAM....
Abid wrote:
people being duped by rulers is diffferent to peolpe making their own personal choice to embrace Islam
Duped is duped. It matters little who duped you into believing heinous actions are justifiable.

Abid wrote:
Youngest person on record to have a child is 8 years old in Argentina.
If god didnt want people having children so young, he wouldnt allow them to mensturate so young.
Facts of life!
Rolling Eyes That's akin to saying if God didn't want people to be vaporized by the millions, he wouldn't have allowed for thermo-nuclear technology. Just because you can; doesn't mean you should. Your pro-pedophilia arguments have become as ridiculous as they are disgusting. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 05:54 pm
Does Islam actually advocate taking a wife at the age of eight, or is all of this just a ridiculous sideshow discussion of whether or not Mohammed was a pedophile? Does anyone actually believe that embracing Islam equates to embracing pedophilia? Or that a justification of the cultural practices of several hundred years ago will somehow make Islam more appealing?
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 06:00 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Does Islam actually advocate taking a wife at the age of eight, or is all of this just a ridiculous sideshow discussion of whether or not Mohammed was a pedophile? Does anyone actually believe that embracing Islam equates to embracing pedophilia? Or that a justification of the cultural practices of several hundred years ago will somehow make Islam more appealing?


I suspect that the anti Islam fanatics have used the thing as a real point of abuse of Islam (neglecting that it was common practice at the time in lots of cultures) and the more fundy Muslims have reacted more by trying to justify it, than by saying, yep, that sucked.....but it was common then, hey we all move on, don't we?

I think it is bad faith on the part of the attackers, and is a trap for Islamist fundies (just as defending the archaic nonsense in the bible is for christian fundies) because they cannot bear to allow that their prophet wasn't perfect for all time.

Frankly, I think both sides are nuts about the whole thing and deserve each other.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 06:02 pm
dlowan wrote:
Frankly, I think both sides are nuts about the whole thing and deserve each other.


Ditto.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 06:13 pm
Ditto Ditto.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 06:22 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Does Islam actually advocate taking a wife at the age of eight, .....


I dunno ... Abid is MIA.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 06:26 pm
I don't make a habit of attacking religious beliefs, Freeduck, but in this case it was a Muslim who brought Aisha up and attempted to justify the heinous act reportedly perpetrated against her. My desire to denounce such heinous activity for what it is trumps my desire to respect the religious beliefs of the misguided individuals who seek to defend them. Pedophilia, like slavery, is despicable. Neither law nor religious edict should be required for a rational human being to understand this. Conversely; where laws or religious edicts present such heinousness as acceptable (or in Muhammad's case; even infallible rightness), I think it's important to voice opposition in hopes that the misguided may recognize the inherent flaws in their defense. One would think this would be pretty simple considering the act we're discussing, but the reaction of the faithful here presents quite a different, troubling truth. To some degree; my opposition to the Muslim faith can be measured by its follower's persistence in forwarding heinousness as acceptable. Still, I'd like to think a broader consensus of Muslim opinion would reject the heinous behavior these adherents are apparently defending. Sadly, there seems little evidence of this.

(Ditto Ditto Ditto)
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 07:08 pm
Well, I was a roman catholic for a lot of years; some time later, I read extensively about the history of the italian peninsula, including much that I hadn't read back in high school and my first year of college in a catholic college, re the papal power and the peninsula. I didn't start reading on all this extensively until I was about fifty, from hundreds of books, but not looking at early marriage as an issue.

Not being a person of great memory, I sit here now with impressions and a whole bunch of notes still packed.

Age of the affianced wasn't ever my main interest, but plenty of folks were assigned spouses very early. The actual marital act may have taken place years later, perhaps not when the marriage happened (sometimes, if, ever).

Perhaps I've skipped over the timing of the marital act of Mohammed, sorry, I don't follow all these posts.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 09:58 pm
Grandmaster wrote:
It is not only arrogant but quite stupid to deny Islam's influence on modern science.

It is arrogant and stupid to allege any such denial has been presented.

Quote:
At the time Islamic science, technology, architecture, astronomy, litrature flourished... Europe was in utter darkness.

It is arrogant and stupid to pretend otherwise. It is arrogant and stupid also to overlook the fact that coincident with Europe's flowering and the emergence of what has therefrom become modern civilization was Islam's retreat back into the stultifying darkness of medeival theocracy.



Quote:
Islam - world's only pure and fastest growing religion - had brought civization to this world; unlike European colonists.

Not only have your claims pertaining to Islam's growthrate and purity been not substantiated, credible statistical evidence to the contrary has been presented - in multiple instance - while you persist in repeating claim validated by nothing more substantial than reference to that claim. Further, while no one cany deny the rapacious predations European colonists perpetrated one, two, and more centuries ago, no one can deny that characteristic today of Europe and of most those lands colonized by those Europeans in those days is a standard of living and a level of citizen participation in government far greater than is characteristic of the Islamic world in general. In such particular regard, the nations of Islamic world stand out in the community of nations specifically for all but universal near-totalitarian oligarchic rule, graft and corruption as social norm, grinding poverty, rampant sectarian violence, and aggressivelly confrontational stance toward the non-Islamic world.

Now, I'll acknowledge many condemn Islam unfairly as a whole for the acts and pronouncements of a few. Not all who embrace Islam are barbaric, ideology-driven, murderous, facistic thugs with neither courage nor compassion - by any estimate there are vast multitudes of Islam's faithful who are not barbaric, ideology-driven, murderous, facistic thugs with neither courage nor compassion for every one who is a barbaric, ideology-driven, mrderous, facistic thug with neither courage nor compassion. Nevertheless, the barbaric, ideology-driven, murderous, facistic thugs with neither courage nor compassion responsible for the atrocities they perpetrate in the name of Islam emerge from, are nurtured by, and operate from within an Islamic society which does little to remedy the ills from which those relatively few barbaric, ideology-driven murderous facistic thugs with neither courage nor compassion spring, does little to distance itself from them, does little to inhibit their atrocities, and in large part lionizes - makes heroes of - looks to as role models - those barbaric, ideology-driven, mrderous, facistic thugs with neither courage nor compassion who's atrocities besmirch the name of Islam. Those who would press the claim Islam be a "Religion of Peace" would do well for that case were they to demonstrate such be the case as opposed to tolerating and enabling those who in the name of Islam seek to impose on the world a new Dark Age.

Quote:
Islam is indeed the erfect religion....

Indeed, given the sad history of religions in the affairs of humankind, it appears to be without equal.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 10:24 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
I don't make a habit of attacking religious beliefs, Freeduck, but in this case it was a Muslim who brought Aisha up and attempted to justify the heinous act reportedly perpetrated against her. My desire to denounce such heinous activity for what it is trumps my desire to respect the religious beliefs of the misguided individuals who seek to defend them. Pedophilia, like slavery, is despicable. Neither law nor religious edict should be required for a rational human being to understand this. Conversely; where laws or religious edicts present such heinousness as acceptable (or in Muhammad's case; even infallible rightness), I think it's important to voice opposition in hopes that the misguided may recognize the inherent flaws in their defense. One would think this would be pretty simple considering the act we're discussing, but the reaction of the faithful here presents quite a different, troubling truth. To some degree; my opposition to the Muslim faith can be measured by its follower's persistence in forwarding heinousness as acceptable. Still, I'd like to think a broader consensus of Muslim opinion would reject the heinous behavior these adherents are apparently defending. Sadly, there seems little evidence of this.

(Ditto Ditto Ditto)


I hear you, O'bill, I really do. I don't pretend to know enough about Islam to know whether most muslims think it's ok to marry an 8-year-old (or however old she was). But if most muslims are not marrying off their daughters straight out of grade school then I have to assume that means they accept that things have changed since Mohammed's time.

Fervent people feel the need to defend and justify everything about their religion -- even outdated and irrelevant aspects -- if they feel challenged. And fervent people often feel challenged.
0 Replies
 
Abid
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Dec, 2006 08:48 am
Re: AISHA'S AGE AND NEW PROPAGANDA AGAINST ISLAM....
Ticomaya wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Abid wrote:
Youngest person on record to have a child is 8 years old in Argentina.
If god didnt want people having children so young, he wouldnt allow them to mensturate so young.
Facts of life!


Wow.

It sure sounds as it you're advocating having sex with 8 year olds.

Is that something Islam taught you?




<crickets>


Im not advocating anything.

Im just saying it can happen.

Its not up to me to judge it.
0 Replies
 
Abid
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Dec, 2006 08:59 am
dlowan wrote:
Grandmaster wrote:
It is not only arrogant but quite stupid to deny Islam's influence on modern science. At the time Islamic science, technology, architecture, astronomy, litrature flourished... Europe was in utter darkness. Islam - world's only pure and fastest growing religion - had brought civization to this world; unlike European colonists.

Islam is indeed the erfect religion....


It is indeed ignorant and stupid to deny Islam's influence upon modern science.


It is also both ignorant and stupid to deny that much of the "science" that is promoted by blind adherents of the faith as being accurately presented in the Koran is so much codswallop that any rational human being would identify as such.

You make the silly logical mistake of thinking that to deny the codswallop, and the claims of perfection that go with it, is also to deny the historical glories of Islam.

Time to renew them via the same spirit of tolerance, compassion and fearless intellectual inquiry that marked the apogee of Islamic culture?

This would, presumably, entail naming codswallop for what it is, whosoever's holy book or hate filled rantings it be in?


Were is your proof that the science within the Quran is 'Codswallop?'

Islam is perfect, its followers are not.

If Islamic law was practiced properly in this world it would solve all problems.

No need to renew anything except our motivation to learn and strive to do good and better ourselves, and not worry about what ever else may be going on in the world. If everyone did this then there wouldnt be problems.
0 Replies
 
Abid
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Dec, 2006 09:04 am
FreeDuck wrote:
Does Islam actually advocate taking a wife at the age of eight, or is all of this just a ridiculous sideshow discussion of whether or not Mohammed was a pedophile? Does anyone actually believe that embracing Islam equates to embracing pedophilia? Or that a justification of the cultural practices of several hundred years ago will somehow make Islam more appealing?


I dont know the ruling of whether it is allowed, but consent of the wife or her gaurdian must be recieved before marriage.

I knew about the marriage to Ayesha before I reverted to Islam 6 months ago. This situation does not disprove the fact that Islam is the religion of God.
0 Replies
 
Abid
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Dec, 2006 09:05 am
Re: AISHA'S AGE AND NEW PROPAGANDA AGAINST ISLAM....
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Abid wrote:
people being duped by rulers is diffferent to peolpe making their own personal choice to embrace Islam
Duped is duped. It matters little who duped you into believing heinous actions are justifiable.

Abid wrote:
Youngest person on record to have a child is 8 years old in Argentina.
If god didnt want people having children so young, he wouldnt allow them to mensturate so young.
Facts of life!
Rolling Eyes That's akin to saying if God didn't want people to be vaporized by the millions, he wouldn't have allowed for thermo-nuclear technology. Just because you can; doesn't mean you should. Your pro-pedophilia arguments have become as ridiculous as they are disgusting. Rolling Eyes


Just as disgusting as some drunken lunatics perving and sleeping around with people you dont even know???
0 Replies
 
chiso
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Dec, 2006 09:21 am
Just to get this clear:

All sources point to the fact that Mohammad had sex with a 9 year old girl.
Correct?

There's nothing else I need to know or discuss after that.
0 Replies
 
Abid
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Dec, 2006 09:23 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
I don't make a habit of attacking religious beliefs, Freeduck, but in this case it was a Muslim who brought Aisha up and attempted to justify the heinous act reportedly perpetrated against her. My desire to denounce such heinous activity for what it is trumps my desire to respect the religious beliefs of the misguided individuals who seek to defend them. Pedophilia, like slavery, is despicable. Neither law nor religious edict should be required for a rational human being to understand this. Conversely; where laws or religious edicts present such heinousness as acceptable (or in Muhammad's case; even infallible rightness), I think it's important to voice opposition in hopes that the misguided may recognize the inherent flaws in their defense. One would think this would be pretty simple considering the act we're discussing, but the reaction of the faithful here presents quite a different, troubling truth. To some degree; my opposition to the Muslim faith can be measured by its follower's persistence in forwarding heinousness as acceptable. Still, I'd like to think a broader consensus of Muslim opinion would reject the heinous behavior these adherents are apparently defending. Sadly, there seems little evidence of this.

(Ditto Ditto Ditto)


Its not a religious belief you are attacking, you are attacking the actions of one of the most revered and respected men of all time.
The fact is if this wasnt a decree of God, knowing that it would be an issue for debate in time to come, would a man as famous as Mohammed really have folowed his own desires?
It is known that he lived modestly, was offered bribes to stop preaching, slept on a mat that would mark his back, distrubuted his wealth to the poor etc.
It is clear from the evidence that the marriage to Ayisha was important to Islam.
Aisha bint Abi Bakr Siddique was one of the greatest scholars of Islam of all time. The depth and breadth of her knowledge far surpassed that of most individuals after the Prophet, man or woman. Her life, her scholarly opinions though over 400 years old, are not collecting dust in some ancient manuscripts, but are alive and used as a basis and a guide for Muslims throughout the Muslim world, from the Americas to the Middle East, the Indo-Pak subcontinent to Southeast Asia.

Let us hear what some of her fellows said of her:

*Abu Musa Ash'ani--one of the companions of the prophet--"the companions were never presented with a problem which when referred to Aisha did not present a satisfactory solution."

*Attar Bin Abi Kibal--student of many of her companions "Aisha was the best theologian, the most learned and the one having sound judgment."

*Imam Zahni--one of the great Islamic scholars, "If the knowledge of all the men and the Mothers of the Believers is gathered at one place, the knowledge of Aisha would be vaster."

Source: http://www.wiu.edu/users/mfgp/Islam/Aisha.html
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Dec, 2006 09:23 am
Abid wrote:
This situation does not disprove the fact that Islam is the religion of God.


How can it be the religion of God when it is built on top of two others that also purport to be the religion of God. How is it possible that an almighty creator and father to all of humanity would create only one religion for them? This is my beef with all of the Abrahamic religions. To believe that there is only one true religion is to belief that something as infinite and complex as the concept of God has only one dimension. It isn't possible.
0 Replies
 
Abid
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Dec, 2006 09:32 am
Tim,

Your points are off topic, but i will humor you.

You are correct. there are no Islamic states that prctice Sharia law properly. The leaders of many have become greedy and power driven and as a result their subjects suffer. Many countries are so up the US's ass that they will do anything to keep it like that.

Did you know that if every arab investor pulled their money out of the USA that your whole economy would collapse?
Why does the US take so much effort into educationg, courting and assisting the regimes of the middle east? Like Bin Laden, Sadaam Hussain, The Saudi royals etc.?

Its sad but true that manipulation, money and power have ways of destroying people.
0 Replies
 
 

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