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Questions For Which Evolutionists Have No Answers

 
 
Reply Sun 10 Dec, 2006 08:59 pm
Richard Goldschmidt was one of the scientists who publically renounced Darwinism as a consequence of the failure of the experiments involving fruit flies. Fruit flies breed new generations every few days so that running such experiments for decades involved more generations of fruit flies than there have ever been of anything resembling man on this planet. They subjected the flies to heat, cold, shock, blast, light, darkness, chemicals, and everything in the world known to cause mutations and then recombined the mutants every way possible, and all they ever got was sterile freaks and fruit flies. No mosquitos, no dragonflies, no hornets, wasps, ladybirds, mantises, gnats, or anything else at all, just fruitflies. This may have been the most major test which the idea of macroevolution has ever been put to and the theory totally failed the test, the results were decisive and unambiguous.

Goldschmidt went on to write a book, "The Material Basis of Evolution" (1940), with a challenge to the modern synthesis:

Quote:


Goldschmidt:

I may challenge the adherents of the strictly Darwinian view, which we are discussing here, to try to explain the evolution of the following features by accumulation and selection of small mutants:

  • hair in mammals
  • feathers in birds
  • segmentation in arthropods and vertebrates
  • the transformation of the gill arches in phylogeny including the aortic arches
  • muscles, nerves, etc.
  • teeth
  • shells of molluscs
  • ectoskeletons
  • compound eyes
  • blood circulation
  • alternation of generations
  • statocysts
  • ambulacral systems of echinoderms
  • pedicellaria of the same
  • cnidocysts
  • poison apparatus of snakes
  • whalebone
  • chemical differences like hemoglobin vs. hemocyanin



Goldschmidt was subjected to endless villification, but nobody has ever answered his challenge.

Consider the case of whales, and the questions of whalebone and sonar.

Evolutionists claim that some animal sort of like a bear or an oversized dog just started swimming around until his feet turned into flippers, and then just swam out into the deep water of the ocean and became whales.

We have mammals today which live in rivers, including hippos, and they do pretty well for themselves. But you don't see hippos out in deep water because they know perfectly well what would happen to them in deep water, and about how long it would take to happen. They do not have the propulsion system, the navigation capabilities, or anything else to live in deep water. In real life, you don't go off into deep water and hope that Chuck Darwin and his ideological doctrine will provide you with the wherewithal to live there; you'll last a few hours if you're lucky. In real life, God or somebody with bio-engineering capabilities has to provide you with the wherewithal to live in deep water, and only then do you go there to live.

In fact apparently it's only the one kind of crocodile with gills which lives in deep water if you want to call reefs deep water.

How does a creatures which uses carnivore teeth to kill and eat large animals survive the thousand generation process it would take to turn those teeth into baleen for straining plankton? The short answer: he wouldn't. In fact, suppose Steve Gould or God or somebody were to simply turn some killer whale's teeth into baleen; the creature would still die within a day or two. He wouldn't have any instinct for using baleen and his mouth would not be large enough to strain enough plankton to live on.

How does a creature which depends on vision for navigation survive the thousand generations it would take him to develop usable sonar for navigation such as whales have? The short answer: he wouldn't. The cycles of whales' lives require they navigate over immense distances, both in deep and in shallow water.


Rick Lanier notes:

Quote:

Some of the problems of Whales evolving from Land "urchins":

The cochleal bones of whales are made up of three membranes. This leads to great dexterity in the acoustic deciphering needed for low frequency navigation. The spriral formation of these 'ears' creates acoustic sensory organs much more sophisticated than any land mammal. The US Navy during the 60's - 80's conducted research using pilot whales and dolphins, for among other things, position tracking of torpedos and submarines. The findings were more astounding that seemed possible. The marine mammals could locate torpedos 5 times faster than navy divers using the most advanced acoustics the Navy had.

Why is low frequency important ? Low frequency only makes sense when used over longer distances, which take advantage of a perculiar characteristic of deep water,

Deep Sound Channels. Deep sound channels form because warm water above reflects down, cold water below reflects up. DSC's in between can carry sound great distances by use of these channels. The US Navy has been protecting your country for years by utilizing this fact, along with the triangulation effect of the SOSUS underwater 'hydrophones'. Now to the point, How could whales 'evolve' deep water frequencies while staying in shore? And the paradox, how could they survive in deep water without the echolocation mentioned. The documentary "Deaf Whale, Dead Whale" recently shown on Science Frontiers (Discovery) bring out the point of whale dependance on echolocation for its survival. In this documenatry they discuss how a whale was tracked througout the Atlantic using the SOSUS network. They were surprised to see how this particular whale was using the island of Bermuda as a navigation beacon., from great distances. The use of these frequencies by whales was the main reason that enviromental groups protested the planned use of Acoustic Termo Measurement (Using low frequency sound waves to measure temperature) in the Atlantic. The tests were cancelled.

Some would say that whales just went from shallow to deep water. Yet they have the acoustics for both. The high frequency 'clicks' used for in close sonar, and communication, and the deep water low frequency echolation used for navigation.


How did snakes evolve? Being a snake is actually a sort of a complex deal. You need a very long and narrow body, hearts, lungs and all that sort of stuff have to be differently shaped and packed differently than you find in normal animals, you need to know how to slither, which is a fairly complex skill... Attaining all of that would take many generations.

Consider however that the very first step along such a path (at least according to the theory of evolution) would have to be being born as a quadraplegic (without any arms or legs, due to mutation).

In the real world, there is nothing more pitiful than a creature with no arms and legs. Humans in such condition are generally kept alive by charity; animals in such a state last an hour or two before being eaten by predators. How then did the snake survive the the many generations it would take to evolve the complex features he requires after being mutated into a quadraplegic sitting duck target and effortlessly free meal for every predator on Earth?


Insect evolution: Insects are presumed to have evolved from (segmented) worms. Nonetheless there is no evidence of this having actually happened and the simplest insects are vastly more complex than the most complex worm. The pictures we see of the worm to insect transition show vast gains in complexity at every step with no explainations as to what caused that complexity. How and why did insects arise from worms?


Lungs. In theory, lungfish are supposed to have given rise to amphibians and amphibians to our modern land animals. Nonetheless, lungfish don't get around all that well on dry land. They use their capabilities to move from one stream to another or to bury themselves in mud and hang on until the rains come. Consider that the transition from lungfish to amphibian is supposed to have occurred during an age of insects with two-foot wingspans and consider what a swarm of such insects would do to a lungfish which was trying to actually spend enough time out on dry land to become a functional land animal... When you look at it that way, the idea of lungs evolving from the lungfish seems pretty silly, and the evo-losers do not really have any other ideas on the subject.

For that matter, if fins could turn into legs and feet, we should see it happening from time to time in the world's waters. It isn't like humans don't haul in millions of fish every year and look at them. Where are the fish with feet?

Metamorphoses. Metamorphoses does not exist amongst fish and yet amphibians display it. Where does metamorphoses come from and how did it "evolve"? Wouldn't a lungfish trying to evolve into a frog have enough problems without worrying about metamorphoses?

Insect metamorphoses. Evolutionists claim that we all start from a single cell and evolve through various forms prior to being born; that butterflies and other such insects merely spend a certain amount of time living out in the world in one of the feotal states or some such. Nonetheless butterflies and moths use cocoons and it's very hard to imagine how the caterpillar would survive his changeover without the cocoon to protect him. That says that the first such creature which ever started using such a system had exactly one generation to figure out the whole thing with cocoons or it wouldn't have made it. How did that the first butterfly get the cocoon thing right in one generation?

Paranormal capabilities. Evolutionists generally pooh-pooh this kind of evidence and attempt to discredit the people involved with such studies, since they instinctively dislike the idea of having to deal with anything like that within an evolutinoary context.

Nonetheless, there are other people and groups of people who do not have the luxury of trying to ignore things which do not fit within their ideological paradigms. The king of France in the 1400's, for instance, did
not have such a luxury. The Catholic church, apparently making up in thoroughness for anything they might lack in celibacy, took several hundred years to analyze the case of Joan of Arc, and ultimately determined that at
least some of her activities required information that she had no way of having other than for paranormal means; they cannonized Joan in the 20'th century.

Likewise the US military does not have the luxury of ignoring such things.

You can check out:

http://www.remoteviewinghistory.com/remote-viewing-research-lecture.html

or do your own google search on 'Stubblebine' and 'remote viewing' at your leisure. Books have been published on soviet activities in this area and I presume American general officers are not paid to investigate pseudoscience.

Rupert Sheldrake's www site is http://www.sheldrake.org

Sheldrake is a former director of studies in cellular biology at Cambridge University who has made a second career of using statistical methodology and intelligent experiment design to investigate things normally termed "paranormal". This naturally puts him near the top of the public enemies list for the CSICOP crowd, Skeptic Magazine, and other such "science vigilantes"; nonetheless his methods are unassailable, his credentials are significantly better than theirs are, and he's financially independant so that they have zero leverage over him, i.e. being his own boss, he is not likely to fire himself at their insistance.

Sheldrake has pretty demonstrated to a statistical certainty that several kinds of things which are usually termed paranormal, are real.

And so, the question for evolutionists: How do paranormal capabilities evolve?

For instance the little dog who knows precisely when his owner first starts to come home (the featurette you sometimes see on German cable channels); how did the little dog evolve that capability? Sheldrake's blind test for that one is about as unanswerable as it gets.

Then again, there's always the problem(s) involved in flying birds...

Assume you start off with a creature with hair or scales, and ala Darwin, something mutates the hair or scales into feathers: How do you end up with two totally different KINDS of feathers (down feathers for insulation and flight feathers with their rigid structure for holding air and flying), and how do the flight feathers end up only on the wings where they are needed? Why don't the flight feathers end up on the creatures *** or his **** instead, or all over his whole body??

Or, assume some velociraptor or coelurosaur gets his scales or hair all mutated into down feathers and then 50,000 years later, some of the down feathers mutate a second time into flight feathers. Same question, what causes the mutation only on the wings where the flight feathers are needed instead of somewhere else on his body or all over??

Why has no flightless bird ever again regained the ability to fly? Or could it be that the ability to fly was DESIGNED, and that once you lose even the tiniest bit of some complex capability, it's gone forever?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 14,432 • Replies: 209
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Dec, 2006 09:09 pm
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Dec, 2006 09:19 pm
I see Gunga is resorting to arguments from 1940.

Since 1940 DNA testing has occurred Gunga. It has revealed a lot of how different species share genes and how they can be traced backward in time.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Dec, 2006 09:22 pm
Quote:
Why has no flightless bird ever again regained the ability to fly? Or could it be that the ability to fly was DESIGNED, and that once you lose even the tiniest bit of some complex capability, it's gone forever?


I don't think Gunga sees how ridiculous his argument is. "Evolution never occured because no flightless bird ever regained the ability to fly."


How did they lose that ability without evolution Gunga?
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Dec, 2006 08:55 am
Re: Questions For Which Evolutionists Have No Answers
gungasnake wrote:
Richard Goldschmidt was one of the scientists who publically renounced Darwinism as a consequence of the failure of the experiments involving fruit flies.

Goldschmidt was subjected to endless villification


I wonder why.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Dec, 2006 12:04 am
Re: Questions For Which Evolutionists Have No Answers
rosborne979 wrote:
gungasnake wrote:
Richard Goldschmidt was one of the scientists who publically renounced Darwinism as a consequence of the failure of the experiments involving fruit flies.

Goldschmidt was subjected to endless villification


I wonder why.



Too many idiots for colleagues. You need to be financially independant before you make any sort of an honest statement about evolution.
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Dec, 2006 12:18 am
Re: Questions For Which Evolutionists Have No Answers
gungasnake wrote:
You need to be financially independant before you make any sort of an honest statement about evolution.


You need a brain!
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Dec, 2006 07:28 am
Re: Questions For Which Evolutionists Have No Answers
gungasnake wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
gungasnake wrote:
Richard Goldschmidt was one of the scientists who publically renounced Darwinism as a consequence of the failure of the experiments involving fruit flies.

Goldschmidt was subjected to endless villification


I wonder why.


You need to be financially independant before you make any sort of an honest statement about evolution.


Ha, that's funny Smile
0 Replies
 
akaMechsmith
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Dec, 2006 07:33 pm
There are also several questions for which religion or ID has no answers.

A few examples,


Where was the Creator-Designer when It was creating-designing Question

Where is the Expanding Universe expanding to Question

Would an Intelligent Designer combine sewage disposal, recreation and procreation areas Question Budget problems perhaps :wink:

Is Gods Unfailing Love compatible with observations in the Sudan Question

Why would a "Big Bang" bang Question

Questions can occupy us for all time. Answers may not necessarily be logical but IMO they should be understandable. The fun is in the Quest Smile
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Dec, 2006 07:48 pm
akaMechsmith wrote:
There are also several questions for which religion or ID has no answers.

Where was the Creator-Designer when It was creating-designing Question

Where is the Expanding Universe expanding to Question

Would an Intelligent Designer combine sewage disposal, recreation and procreation areas Question Budget problems perhaps :wink:

Is Gods Unfailing Love compatible with observations in the Sudan Question

Why would a "Big Bang" bang Question

Questions can occupy us for all time. Answers may not necessarily be logical but IMO they should be understandable. The fun is in the Quest


I can give pretty much answer a few of those for you.

As far as where the creator was, figure everywhere. Rupert Sheldrake notes that once anything has been done anywhere, it's more easily done anywhere else, and that includes lifeforms. The information needed for any of the complex living creatures which was ever seen on this planet is out there.

http://www.sheldrake.org

The Universe is not expanding. That idea was never based on anything other than a misinterpretation of redshift data. Halton Arp and others have destroyed the idea.

http://www.electric-cosmos.org/arp.htm

There was never a big bang. The Universe, like God, is probably eternal, and the creation stories you read in ancient literature refer to the creation of our local environment, and not the universe.

The question of God and the Sudan is one of numerous formulations of the problem of evil. Another would be the question of a son of God being born into this world and the American Indians going 1500 years before they heard about it. All such questions basically hang on the question of what the word "omnipotent" is supposed to mean. Most people view it as meaning "having all the power which anybody could imagine", and it is that definition which leads to conundrums and breakdowns of logic. A more rational definition would be "having all the power that there actually is", and THAT definition does not lead to conundrums.

That view says that the spirit world and our physical realm are strongly separated, at least in our age of the world, and that the two are orthoganal to eachother and that the spirit world actually has little if any real power to act within our realm; that we in fact might have originally been put here to PROVIDE the spirit world with some degree of instrumentality in this physical realm. THAT of course would require solid and reliable communications between the two realms, which we do not presently have.

That view also says that on the day that Christ was born into our physical realm, he was subject to all of the same physical laws which we are subject to, including not being able to get from Israel to Mexico or Kansas without airplanes.

That view also says that a loving God simply did not create the creatures of Pandora's box. The best evidence we have at present is that the engineering and re-engineering of complex life forms was some sort of a cottage industry or something like that in past ages and that more than one pair of hands was involved, and that whoever was responsible for the existence of biting flies, ticks, and chiggers, is not anybody we need to worship, to say the least.

Basic answer about the Sudan is there isn't much the spirit world can do about it, at least not now.

In theory the UN should have done something about it, but we all know what kind of people run the UN.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Dec, 2006 08:01 pm
From reading all of Gunga's posts I am beginning to change my mind on Evolution.

I now think it is possible that both Creationists and Evolutionists are correct.
0 Replies
 
Ray
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 03:10 am
I'm sorry, but what you posted seems nothing more than pure speculations.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 03:17 am
Here's another stray thought for anybody interested in reading about it. The various religious practices of the ancient world were meant to establish direct communications with the spirit world, and this included oracles, phrophecy, familiar spirits (e.g. the story of Saul, Samuel, and the witch of Endor), idolatry etc. as well as physical and electrical/electrostatic devices like the ark of the covenant.

The closest thing there is in our modern world to anything like any of that would be the same thing you might have seen in a movie called "White Noise" recently and which you can read about here:

http://aaevp.com/

I believe that stuff is real. Not that they have any sort of a totally good or predictable handle on it or that they have any idea who or what they're talking to when they do that sort of thing, but it's probably real.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 07:51 am
Re: Questions For Which Evolutionists Have No Answers
Gunga -- why would you cut and paste rhetorical questions about evolution that when the answer is only a simple Google search away? I don't have the patience to answer every question you ask in your post. But to demonstrate how easily you could find answers for yourself if you wanted to, here is Goldschmidt's list of challenges, linked to the list of papers that a search on Google Scholar turns up.

You may not like the explanations given in the listed papers. But to claim that no explantaions exist is demonstrably, and patently, false.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 08:12 am
How about, for which no DECENT explanation exists?

All it sounds like you're asking me to do is insert an adjective.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 08:20 am
gungasnake wrote:
How about, for which no DECENT explanation exists?

All it sounds like you're asking me to do is insert an adjective.

That, plus demonstrating some knowledge of what the current evolutionary explanations for each of these phenomena actually are, plus a conclusive argument showing how they fail to be decent. (Whatever you specifically mean by "decent".)
0 Replies
 
Francisco DAnconia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 09:18 am
Re: Questions For Which Evolutionists Have No Answers
gungasnake wrote:
We have mammals today which live in rivers, including hippos, and they do pretty well for themselves. But you don't see hippos out in deep water because they know perfectly well what would happen to them in deep water, and about how long it would take to happen. They do not have the propulsion system, the navigation capabilities, or anything else to live in deep water. In real life, you don't go off into deep water and hope that Chuck Darwin and his ideological doctrine will provide you with the wherewithal to live there; you'll last a few hours if you're lucky. In real life, God or somebody with bio-engineering capabilities has to provide you with the wherewithal to live in deep water, and only then do you go there to live.

Darwinism doesn't apply on an individual basis. If I decide I want to fly, go up to the roof of this house, and jump off twenty times a day, chances are good I won't fly. I probably will get killed, though. That's the situation you just presented. In order for the evolutionary process to be applicable, you have to consider the changes as taking place over hundreds of generations - maybe Mr. Hippo will swim in deep water someday, as his descendants live subtle inches further out each generation. No?

gungasnake wrote:
How does a creatures which uses carnivore teeth to kill and eat large animals survive the thousand generation process it would take to turn those teeth into baleen for straining plankton? The short answer: he wouldn't. In fact, suppose Steve Gould or God or somebody were to simply turn some killer whale's teeth into baleen; the creature would still die within a day or two. He wouldn't have any instinct for using baleen and his mouth would not be large enough to strain enough plankton to live on.

You're thinking too creationist. For your scenario to occur as described, with whales dying all over the place because they can't get baleen quick enough, we'd have to have nothing... and then whales out of nowhere! That's a creationist thought. For whales to exist they'd have to evolve, slowly, over hundreds of thousands of years - specializing, as they have, in the creation and employment of such complex attributes as baleen. Just remember that the first whale didn't show up one day without baleen.

gungasnake wrote:
Consider that the transition from lungfish to amphibian is supposed to have occurred during an age of insects with two-foot wingspans and consider what a swarm of such insects would do to a lungfish which was trying to actually spend enough time out on dry land to become a functional land animal...

I'm curious as to what happened to those two-foot insects. Since they didn't evolve into smaller beings to increase their chances of survival, is it possible God smote them for impiety?

gungasnake wrote:
For that matter, if fins could turn into legs and feet, we should see it happening from time to time in the world's waters. It isn't like humans don't haul in millions of fish every year and look at them. Where are the fish with feet?

Since we've only been looking for evolutionary traits for about a hundred years, I'd be shocked to find that we're already detecting new evolutionary processes.

You keep forgetting about how subtle and time-consuming the evolutionary process is.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 09:25 am
I will give you one example, which is one more than you rate since all you've done is link several google search pages on topics and the choice is clearly mine. I notice in one of the articles which turns up on your linked page under "Feathers in birds"

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/67501594/ABSTRACT?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

does not contain the word "flight". There are several kinds of feathers, and flight feathers in particular have the structure (a system of interlocked barbules) required for the strength to hold air under pressure, and down feathers which provide insulation and the other kinds do not have this.

http://www.paulnoll.com/Oregon/Birds/feather-flight.jpg

Now, the question for evolution true believers is how the flight feathers ended up only on the wings where they were needed. What them from ending up on his *** or his **** instead?


Do you begin to see the problem? I strongly suspect that you could look through every hit Google was able to turn up now or ten years from now for an answer to what kept flight feathers from ending up on a bird's *** or ****, and you won't find anything.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 09:29 am
Re: Questions For Which Evolutionists Have No Answers
Francisco DAnconia wrote:

I'm curious as to what happened to those two-foot insects. Since they didn't evolve into smaller beings to increase their chances of survival, is it possible God smote them for impiety?


Many kinds of animals were larger in past ages than they are now, something which enabled that changed. We no longer have 300,000 lb land animals either. Some people figure gravity itself changed or that the planet became substantially more massive.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 09:43 am
Re: Questions For Which Evolutionists Have No Answers
Francisco DAnconia wrote:
I'm curious as to what happened to those two-foot insects.


Reduced oxygen levels limited the size of insects (thread here).
0 Replies
 
 

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