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What This War Has Boiled Down To

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Dec, 2006 10:08 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
However, although not related to that, to address your comment, my belief that the invasion of Iraq was justified at the time it occurred because of the incomplete state of our knowledge at the time about Iraqi WMD, is pretty mainstream.


You have absolutely no basis upon which to make this assertion. It is not at all reasonable to assert that any significant number of people now believe that the Shrub was not knowingly lying. Our knowledge may not have been complete, but both Hans Blix and Mohammed al Baradei were telling us that the Iraqis were cooperating, and that there was no evidence of womd programs. The Shrub and his supporters simply chose to ignore the evidence that was available; furthermore, the administration knowingly lied about evidence to attempt to justify a plan which was matured before the Shrub took office.

Quote:
If you're implying that I believe that our current presence in Iraq is justifed by concerns about WMD, that is certainly not my opinion.


I'm not implying, i'm stating that few people any longer believe that there was good evidence in the possession of the administration in the late winter of 2003 to justify abandoning the inspections regime and invading Iraq. You continue to claim that this is true. You are, in expressing such a belief, in a distinct minority. The yellow cake story and the aluminum tube stories were debunked before the invasion, and the administration cynically withheld that information from Congressional oversight committees.

Quote:
As stated above, I believe that we stay now so as not to abandon a fledgling and weak democracy to barbarians.


The "fledgling democracy" is populated as much by barbarians as is the body of insurrectionists who attack it. The evidence is overwhelming that the Shi'ite dominated police and military in Iraq are carrying out torture and murder as reprisal on sectarian lines. True democracy in Iraq would leave the Shi'ites in power, and they have an 80 year+ grudge to avenge.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Dec, 2006 10:24 am
And, it gets really murky when you look into the facts of the matter as well -

Post-Gulf War 1, a group was assembled from exiled Iraqis, entitled the Iraqi National Congress. They were organzied by the Rendon group and paid millions to foment dissent within Iraq over the next ten years. This group was headed by good ol' Ahmed Chalabi, now accused of spying for the Iranians.

In 1998 they actually rec'd over 90 million from the US.

Much of the information used to justify the WMD angle for war came from a single informant, 'curveball,' who was brought in by this group specifically for the purpose of providing justification for invasion; pretty much everything he said turned out to be a lie.

Now, we have a US company, paid by Federal funds, who support a dissenter group headed by an Iranian spy/sympathizer, who conveinently finds the information needed to support a war that desperately wants to happen - and it all happens to be complete lies? Yeah, that's a hell of a coincidence, don't you think?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_National_Congress
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendon_Group
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Chalabi

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Dec, 2006 10:34 am
Setanta wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
No, you are wrong Setanta. The quotes show that even in 98, before Bush was in office to execute anything in Iraq, American and International intelligence said Saddam had WMDs and WMD programs.

9/11 was certainly the main impetus for invading Iraq. I completely agree with that. No 9/11, no war in Iraq. You are very wrong about the lies though.


No, i am not. There was no other justification for asserting that the Iraqis had an active nuclear arms program than the two allegations about aluminum tubing and yellow cake uranium--and both stories were discounted by Central Intelligence before the Shrub elliptically referred to them in his state of the union address. Those who called for action against Iraq did so after the inspectors were thrown out in 1998, and the call came because, without inspections, we could not know if there were on-going womd programs or not.

But the inspectors went back, they found no evidence, and they publicly stated that Iraq was cooperating. Poodle Blair has been shown to have knowingly lied when he stated that Iraq had a womd delivery system which could launch within 45 minutes. No evidence was ever available that Iraq had any reliable delivery system which threatened the United States or Europe. International intelligence agencies were not stating that they knew Iraq had womd programs, they simply pointed out that, absent inspections, the evidence were inconclusive.

Only the Shrub and blind Bush supporters continue to assert that there was evidence, and then lamely suggest that they were mistaken, but honorably motivated. The schmucks who bought the Shrub's line of bullshit might have been mistaken, and have been deceived. There is no good reason to believe that the CIA, the NSA and the administration did not know better, and damned good reason to believe that they knowingly lied.


November 18 2002
United Nations weapons inspectors arrive in Baghdad to re-launch the search for weapons of mass destruction.
UN weapons inspectors arrive in Iraq

November 27 2002
The weapons inspectors start inspections, visiting two sites, and thank the Iraqis for their cooperation but do not comment on findings.
UN inspectors welcome Iraqi cooperation

December 31 2002
A UN inspection team member in Iraq admits to finding "zilch" evidence of weapons of mass destruction and says that the teams have been provided with little guidance from western intelligence agencies.
Weapons teams discover nothing

January 6 2003
Saddam Hussein says he is ready for war, accuses UN weapons inspectors of being spies and calls his enemies the "friends and helpers of Satan".
'War-ready' Saddam accuses UN of spying

January 9 2003
Hans Blix says UN weapons inspectors have not found any "smoking guns" in their search for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, but acknowledges that Iraq's 12,000 page weapons declaration was incomplete.
Blix: no 'smoking guns' in Iraq

January 16 2003
In their first significant disovery, UN weapons inspectors find 12 warheads designed to carry cheamical weapons. The inspectors believe the warheads were not accounted for in Iraq's 12,000 page submission to the security council.
Iraq weapons inspectors find empty chemical warheads

February 12 2003
The UN weapons inspectors announce they have discovered that Iraq possesses illegal missiles: its Samoud 2 rockets exceed the maximum range of 150km set down in the 1991 Gulf war ceasefire agreement.
UN team finds Iraq has illegal missiles

February 28 2003
Hans Blix's interim report to the UN is published, giving a mixed assessment of Iraqi cooperation with weapons inspectors, but hailing Saddam Hussein's commitment to comply with tomorrow's UN deadline for the destruction of Iraq's illegal Samoud 2 missiles.
Report gives small comfort to the hawks and doves

March 7 2003
Hans Blix gives another ambivalent report to the UN security council on Iraqi compliance, which is followed by a tense debate that further deepens the divide within the council. The foreign secretary, Jack Straw, proposes the UN sets an ultimatum that Iraq will be invaded unless the country demonstrates 'full, unconditional, immediate and active cooperation' by March 17. France makes a clear threat that it will veto such a resolution.
Showdown as Britain sets March 17 deadline on Iraq
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Dec, 2006 10:38 am
Um, yes - as you can see, no WMD, no WMD programs found by the weapons inspectors.

What was the great rush to war for?

One should also note that the intel gained from 'curveball' was held to be far more accurate by the Administration than the Weapons inspectors. And why not? He kept telling them just what they wanted to hear.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Dec, 2006 10:43 am
Your links provide not a shred of support for the administration's contentions that Iraq was known to have womd programs, and were refusing to cooperate. The sum total that you provide is ambiguous evidence that there were chemical weapons warheads (and that only states that the warheads could have been used for that purpose), and the al-Samoud rockets, which exceeded the UN-imposed range limit by an amount insufficient to reach the targets Iraq had fired on in the Gulf War.

Nothing which you have posted is evidence that Iraq had delivery systems which could threaten the United States or Europe, and you provide no evidence that Iraq was known to have womds for a delivery system to employ in the first place.

This is precisely why people are sick of conservative liars--innuendo is proof of nothing, and a paltry excuse to go to war. More than half-a-million people have lost their lives. After fewer than four years, the death toll in Iraq is poised to surpass the death toll from 25 years of Hussein's rule.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Dec, 2006 10:49 am
An incovenient truth?

Iraq's WMD Secreted in Syria, Sada Says

By IRA STOLL
Staff Reporter of the Sun
January 26, 2006

The man who served as the no. 2 official in Saddam Hussein's air force says Iraq moved weapons of mass destruction into Syria before the war by loading the weapons into civilian aircraft in which the passenger seats were removed.

The Iraqi general, Georges Sada, makes the charges in a new book, "Saddam's Secrets," released this week. He detailed the transfers in an interview yesterday with The New York Sun.

"There are weapons of mass destruction gone out from Iraq to Syria, and they must be found and returned to safe hands," Mr. Sada said. "I am confident they were taken over."

Mr. Sada's comments come just more than a month after Israel's top general during Operation Iraqi Freedom, Moshe Yaalon, told the Sun that Saddam "transferred the chemical agents from Iraq to Syria."

Democrats have made the absence of stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq a theme in their criticism of the Bush administration's decision to go to war in 2003. And President Bush himself has conceded much of the point; in a televised prime-time address to Americans last month, he said, "It is true that many nations believed that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. But much of the intelligence turned out to be wrong."

Said Mr. Bush, "We did not find those weapons."

The discovery of the weapons in Syria could alter the American political debate on the Iraq war. And even the accusations that they are there could step up international pressure on the government in Damascus. That government, led by Bashar Assad, is already facing a U.N. investigation over its alleged role in the assassination of a former prime minister of Lebanon. The Bush administration has criticized Syria for its support of terrorism and its failure to cooperate with the U.N. investigation.

The State Department recently granted visas for self-proclaimed opponents of Mr. Assad to attend a "Syrian National Council" meeting in Washington scheduled for this weekend, even though the attendees include communists, Baathists, and members of the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood group to the exclusion of other, more mainstream groups.

Mr. Sada, 65, told the Sun that the pilots of the two airliners that transported the weapons of mass destruction to Syria from Iraq approached him in the middle of 2004, after Saddam was captured by American troops.

"I know them very well. They are very good friends of mine. We trust each other. We are friends as pilots," Mr. Sada said of the two pilots. He declined to disclose their names, saying they are concerned for their safety. But he said they are now employed by other airlines outside Iraq.

The pilots told Mr. Sada that two Iraqi Airways Boeings were converted to cargo planes by removing the seats, Mr. Sada said. Then Special Republican Guard brigades loaded materials onto the planes, he said, including "yellow barrels with skull and crossbones on each barrel." The pilots said there was also a ground convoy of trucks.

The flights - 56 in total, Mr. Sada said - attracted little notice because they were thought to be civilian flights providing relief from Iraq to Syria, which had suffered a flood after a dam collapse in June of 2002.

"Saddam realized, this time, the Americans are coming," Mr. Sada said. "They handed over the weapons of mass destruction to the Syrians."

Mr. Sada said that the Iraqi official responsible for transferring the weapons was a cousin of Saddam Hussein named Ali Hussein al-Majid, known as "Chemical Ali." The Syrian official responsible for receiving them was a cousin of Bashar Assad who is known variously as General Abu Ali, Abu Himma, or Zulhimawe.

Short of discovering the weapons in Syria, those seeking to validate Mr. Sada's claim independently will face difficulty. His book contains a foreword by a retired U.S. Air Force colonel, David Eberly, who was a prisoner of war in Iraq during the first Gulf War and who vouches for Mr. Sada, who once held him captive, as "an honest and honorable man."

In his visit to the Sun yesterday, Mr. Sada was accompanied by Terry Law, the president of a Tulsa, Oklahoma based Christian humanitarian organization called World Compassion. Mr. Law said he has known Mr. Sada since 2002, lived in his house in Iraq and had Mr. Sada as a guest in his home in America. "Do I believe this man? Yes," Mr. Law said. "It's been solid down the line and everything checked out."

Said Mr. Law, "This is not a publicity hound. This is a man who wants peace putting his family on the line."

Mr. Sada acknowledged that the disclosures about transfers of weapons of mass destruction are "a very delicate issue." He said he was afraid for his family. "I am sure the terrorists will not like it. The Saddamists will not like it," he said.

He thanked the American troops. "They liberated the country and the nation. It is a liberation force. They did a great job," he said. "We have been freed."

He said he had not shared his story until now with any American officials. "I kept everything secret in my heart," he said. But he is scheduled to meet next week in Washington with Senators Sessions and Inhofe, Republicans of, respectively, Alabama and Oklahoma. Both are members of the Senate Armed Services Committee.

The book also says that on the eve of the first Gulf War, Saddam was planning to use his air force to launch a chemical weapons attack on Israel.

When, during an interview with the Sun in April 2004, Vice President Cheney was asked whether he thought that Iraqi weapons of mass destruction had been moved to Syria, Mr. Cheney replied only that he had seen such reports.

An article in the Fall 2005 Middle East Quarterly reports that in an appearance on Israel's Channel 2 on December 23, 2002, Israel's prime minister, Ariel Sharon, stated, "Chemical and biological weapons which Saddam is endeavoring to conceal have been moved from Iraq to Syria." The allegation was denied by the Syrian government at the time as "completely untrue," and it attracted scant American press attention, coming as it did on the eve of the Christmas holiday.

The Syrian ruling party and Saddam Hussein had in common the ideology of Baathism, a mixture of Nazism and Marxism.

Syria is one of only eight countries that has not signed the Chemical Weapons Convention, a treaty that obligates nations not to stockpile or use chemical weapons. Syria's chemical warfare program, apart from any weapons that may have been received from Iraq, has long been the source of concern to America, Israel, and Lebanon. In March 2004, the director of Central Intelligence, George Tenet, testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee, saying, "Damascus has an active CW development and testing program that relies on foreign suppliers for key controlled chemicals suitable for producing CW."

The CIA's Iraq Survey Group acknowledged in its September 30, 2004, "Comprehensive Report," "we cannot express a firm view on the possibility that WMD elements were relocated out of Iraq prior to the war. Reports of such actions exist, but we have not yet been able to investigate this possibility thoroughly."

Mr. Sada is an unusual figure for an Iraqi general as he is a Christian and was not a member of the Baath Party. He now directs the Iraq operations of the Christian humanitarian organization, World Compassion.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Dec, 2006 10:50 am
Quote:

This is precisely why people are sick of conservative liars--innuendo is proof of nothing, and a paltry excuse to go to war. More than half-a-million people have lost their lives. After fewer than four years, the death toll in Iraq is poised to surpass the death toll from 25 years of Hussein's rule.


And of course, none of those who propose the war, propose that they get off their asses and go fight the war. Nope. Instead we get firefighter analogies, whatever it takes to keep a bullet from whizzing past their heads.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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