Whiteness Studies

Why, Phoenix, when I see you as the last poster, I dip in and read. Always interested in your opinions.

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(aside to Roger)- It seems that some folks are taking umbrage to my stand on this issue.

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What stand is that? Don't talk about it, be patient, and it'll work itself out?

And if you need an "aside", try PMing.

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Well, yeah! Public challenges should always be answered privately. Let me ponder that a while.

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roger wrote:

Well, yeah! Public challenges should always be answered privately. Let me ponder that a while.

If you need to ponder, you gotta do it 'aloud'? (I'm on a roll)

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Thinking out aloud always got me into trouble Laughing

But jokes aside, this is an interesting topic to watch. We currently have a major thrust in our company "to embrace diversity" and all employees are being trained in this. To the extent that we have launched employee forms for ethnic minority, women and gay and lesbians.

When I attended my session, I asked the trainer is why is diversity being looked at from a "white, hetrosexual male's" perspective only.

She did not have an answer !!

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Aanywaaay...

I think the crux of the contentiousness that this "whiteness studies" class engenders (and still would IMO, even if it had been brought up by someone with more acceptable objectivity than little ole me) is a very basic disagreement. Namely - either you believe that simply being perceived as being "white" in America carries with it privilege, or you do not.

Perhaps this discussion can take on more substantial structure if we try to state whether we are 'yea' or 'nay', and then attempt to back up our belief. (Yeah, I know that too might nosedive straght to hell, but its better than nuthin'!!)

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LOL Gautam

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Who is the bull goose loony around here, anyway ?

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snood wrote:

Aanywaaay...

I think the crux of the contentiousness that this "whiteness studies" class engenders (and still would IMO, even if it had been brought up by someone with more acceptable objectivity than little ole me) is a very basic disagreement. Namely - either you believe that simply being perceived as being "white" in America carries with it privilege, or you do not.

Perhaps this discussion can take on more substantial structure if we try to state whether we are 'yea' or 'nay', and then attempt to back up our belief. (Yeah, I know that too might nosedive straght to hell, but its better than nuthin'!!)

of course, I have pretty much been naming exactly that from about the 2nd page, but do I get any recognition from the author? nooooooooo, of course not, so I guess it really also depends on just who it is who agrees with him and therefore just how much esteem he has decided to attach to those people Crying or Very sad

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sweetcomplication wrote:

snood wrote:
Aanywaaay...

I think the crux of the contentiousness that this "whiteness studies" class engenders (and still would IMO, even if it had been brought up by someone with more acceptable objectivity than little ole me) is a very basic disagreement. Namely - either you believe that simply being perceived as being "white" in America carries with it privilege, or you do not.

Perhaps this discussion can take on more substantial structure if we try to state whether we are 'yea' or 'nay', and then attempt to back up our belief. (Yeah, I know that too might nosedive straght to hell, but its better than nuthin'!!)

of course, I have pretty much been naming exactly that from about the 2nd page, but do I get any recognition from the author? nooooooooo, of course not, so I guess it really also depends on just who it is who agrees with him and therefore just how much esteem he has decided to attach to those people

I, snood, do hereby attest and affirm that I meant no personal slight toward sweetcomplication in my neglect to give her credit for addressing the integral issues I would like to see engaged on this thread.

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...whew...

I almost turned blue (and we don't even have any blueness studies!) waiting 40 pages to get my propers

Thank you, Snoodie :wink:

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Phoenix,

I had no idea agreeing with you is a prerequisite for your participation. Incidentally I think you have issues with this topic and were never comfortable with it anyway. Yes I think your posts here are pretentious and irritating. On a topic about talking about an issue that makes people uncomfortable you are of the opinion taht it shouldn't be talked about.

That's not half bad, but you keep insisting that those who do are trying to force somethign down someone else's throat. IMO, if you have issues with the subject (and as you know I think you have issues with race and black people in specific) and don't like to discuss it I suggest you excersise your prerogative of not discussing it while not trying to ram that wish down other people's throats.

Walk a mile in their shoes, then try ramming it down their throats that it is not something they should talk about.

Your implication that blackness is something that should be avoided in conversation in order for a black person to be friends with a white person is telling.

I am under no illusion that you will not find it irritating to be told not to ram your opinions down someone else's throat. Please read sozobe's post about walking a mile in their shoes berfore you label them as too racially sensitive.

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Just in case anyone is wondering I reference things Phoenix said to me that are not available on this topic (my bad, I realized that I reference things not said here).

Phoenix,

In that private conversation you said: "I react badly to black people attempting to shove it in my face."

Maybe it would be easier if I just referenced that. Yes, I agree that you do. Incidentally I think race can be an issue that can use a little subtlety too. But for some reason I don't think you want to talk about it at all, and on this thread I think you are irritated by snood's desire to talk about it.

Caveat: This is not a defense of snood wanting so much to shape this coversation so much as wishing you would stop trying to stifle it and wishing you would not let the anger this thread has caused you (also referenced to me elsewhere) color your posts.

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Hey man - I'm trackin like it was my favorite soap opera!!!

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if you don't want to talk about race and feel a "guilt trip" why not just stay away? I'd appreciate it as it's painful to read you.

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I had no idea agreeing with you is a prerequisite for your participation.

Craven- Looks like I'm damned if I do, and damned if I don't. You wrote both those quotes.

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Your implication that blackness is something that should be avoided in conversation in order for a black person to be friends with a white person is telling.

You inferred that, but I never said that. What I said is that I have had many black friends, where race was never an issue, and never discussed.

Anyhow Craven, now matter what you think of my concept of black-white relations, I am BACK, and here to stay! BTW, I don't think that you have walked in MY shoes!

I applaud Snood that he has brought this back on topic, which is whether you agree with the concept of "Whiteness Studies". I will address that when I return later!

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I went back and re-read Sozobe's post. And it seems to me that her experiences run parallel to whatever they may teach in whiteness classes. To some whites black people are invisible; I imagine in Sozobe's land the deaf are invisible, so that the extra effort made to be accomodating can turn out to be patronizing.

Me, I had a very southern white mother, and South African cousins, and there was no real understanding of any other position than their own. Matter of fact, they didn't even understand their own. Would whiteness classes where they would learn about the differences have helped? I don't know. Where I live today is very mixed. Not deliberately so; not even accidentally so. We were in a hurry to find an apartment; liked the one we found, and looked at the neighbors afterwards. We live side by side in a friendly fashion. What will happen I don't know, but I do know I will not push any social contact. When and if it happens, it will happen. What I've learned - finally - is to let things be. There will be a natural pattern.

So - whiteness classes. I'm still not sure what can be taught, and how. I can't believe there isn't an awareness of differences. But books and learning are only part of it. What finally works as the learning experience is the actual living and working experience, like Sozobe's.

But talking about it together; learning about it together; learning the similarities and the differences - that's what could help.And the little things - visiting beauty parlors as class trips just to see the differences in hair. I guess what I'm looking at is whiteness classes in terms of life and life styles - history is taught, but the living is there to be experienced. And that can also be an integral part of the studies.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Quote:
if you don't want to talk about race and feel a "guilt trip" why not just stay away? I'd appreciate it as it's painful to read you.

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I had no idea agreeing with you is a prerequisite for your participation.

Craven- Looks like I'm damned if I do, and damned if I don't. You wrote both those quotes.

Only if you indeed have a "guilt trip".

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Your implication that blackness is something that should be avoided in conversation in order for a black person to be friends with a white person is telling.

Phoenix32890 wrote:

You inferred that, but I never said that. What I said is that I have had many black friends, where race was never an issue, and never discussed.

Yes you have black friends but in your conversation with me you said you never spoke to a black lady for bringing up race (in an admittedly daft way) and that you prefer your black people to keep their mouths shut about race saying "I don't need people like that in my life.".

Phoenix32890 wrote:

Anyhow Craven, now matter what you think of my concept of black-white relations, I am BACK, and here to stay! BTW, I don't think that you have walked in MY shoes!

Actually I have, and I am at a loss to explain why race, with black to be specific, makes you so angry. Again as you mentioned elsewhere.

Phoenix32890 wrote:

I applaud Snood that he has brought this back on topic, which is whether you agree with the concept of "Whiteness Studies". I will address that when I return later![/color][/b]

This is a welcome 180 on your previous hostile opinion, again as stated off of this thread.

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Incidentally I dislike the idea of these classes. I had not yet answered snood's question.

Mainly because of the anger it brings out in the very people it is suppossed to change. I think it doesn't work and that there are better ways.

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Whiteness Studies

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