Whiteness Studies

Well, the class itself is totally elective - and I suppose if the white people taking it got too pissed, they could drop it.

And as for "better ways" - I'm open to hearing any suggestions!

Well, one simple "better way" is to make the class less about whitness than about race relations.

What makes some so upset is the white part. That's why you saw the "in your face" accusations long before you posted anything that could be construed as in one's face. I think everyone is a little more sensitive about their race than generalized race discussions.

So I think the lessons the class aims to teach can be taught without the spotlight of making it about white people.

[Craven; an aside. Does the Charles Munch represent your reaction upon coming ac(c)ross my "spelling" blurb?]
Sorry to interupt!

Oh. well, I think another class in "race relations", while definitely more palatable for whites, would no less definitely miss some of the stated purpose for the "white studies classes". Namely, (as I was just saying about half a dozen posts back) that a spotlight is shone on the premise that being perceived as white carries privilege today in the USA.

I always liked the blue eyes-brown eyes exercise for very young schoolchildren who claim it stayed with them for life. I always liked the idea of integration: busing and open housing, both of which seemed not to work.

Mama, I also live in an integrated neighborhood, but that was by choice. It provides me with many interactions with lots of people of differing colors, religions and beliefs. However, it seems so many others do not wish to avail themselves of such an opportunity. Why? Fear of the "unknown"?

Recently, I had someone who I love very much simply remove me from his life (BTW, he is black) and I still don't understand why. His stated reason is ridiculous on its face, so I guess fears can run both ways, however, I really don't know.

Anyway, all of this just adds to my pessimism and confirms the need to somehow get to people at a very early age. How do we do this without 'soylent greening' an entire group? aaaggghhh!!! All questions, no answers, just good intentions and an open heart here, I'm afraid!

My only comment about the issue of white privelege would be that i am amazed that anyone sufficiently intelligent to have matriculated into a university would not have sufficient intelligence to take that as a given.

My other thought drifts off to the Eddie Murphy skit on SNL in which he "disguises himself as white," and goes around town--told the cars are free at the autodealer, "Hey, what's the matter, you knew that, right?" . . . and other such similar foolishness. I thought at the time how refreshing it is that the man can look at himself and poke fun at racial stereotypes, without regard for the direct in which they point.

Setanta, now you bring to mind the 1996 election coverage on Politically Incorrect while it was still on Comedy Central. They had Chris Rock as a sort of 'roving reporter' from each state primary election. While staying in New Hampshire, he brought the house down as he said, "Man, there are NO black people here; I can't get ANY hair products!" lol :wink:

BGW,

Nah, I just stole the avatar from someone else on a private forum and am parading around with it. :-)

Snood,

I think making the class "more palatable for whites" is a good thing. I recognize that to make it more generic would take some of the edge off but I think that's exactly what is needed.

Like Setanta said it's a given that to have the pigmentation of the majority affords you priviliges.

Even so, many, if not most, will react badly to that. Partly because there is no good reaction to it.

Does one apologize for being white? Feel guilty? Of course not (I'm sure you agree)!

That being said I think the purpose of the class is ultimately the amelioration of race relations and that making the point that whiteness is a winning lottery ticket is a means to that end.

The thing is, the fact that whiteness is a priviledge is not entirely due to white people's attitudes. It's part of a complex social structure.

Focusing on how whiteness is a priviledge puts whites in a very awkward position. It's a no-brainer but what are they supposed to feel about it? Guilt? Awareness?

I think we can agree that being aware is a good thing but to what degree should the focus be on whiteness? Individuals rarely feel inordinately privilidged. Most people's reactions will be that this is an attempt to make them squirm to throw a guilt trip on them to....

Whether or not those reactions have merit they are understandable. One's race can't be changed and the benefit of being in the majority race also can't be changed completely. IMO taking the edge off the class is a good idea. The type of people who most need a class like that are the very type who would give knee-jerk reactions involving words and phrases like "uppity", "I have black friends, but.." etc. Those people, the ones who are most likely to throw up a wall about the issue, are the people who need it the most. And, IMO, an edge is not what's needed.

What's better? IMO, subtlety and time. Most of the people who don't get it won't. The younger generations are far more tolerant about race that their predecessors and like many things sometimes only the passage of time will remove some of the more antiquated attitudes.

Of course, you can argue that the edge is needed to get the attention. Heck we wouldn't be discussing this at all if that class din't have the edge. It's clear that the edge gives it coverage, and yes the edge gives a greater chance for awareness.

Unfortunately the edge alienates the people who need the class the most. Very few people in this world think they are racist. Very very few. This kind of class needs to alter attitudes without alienating people. You say it would be an attempt at making it "more palatable to whites" but the class, in a roundabout way is trying to make blacks "more palatable to whites" alienating those whose attitudes most need changing is unlikly, IMO, to bring about the desired change.

I think we can both agree that there are elements to the class that alienate and anger certain people. Whether the edge is needed to get coverage or serve as a catalyst for change is a judgement call in which I suspect we will differ. It is also central to the topic sozobe started about extremity.

I will post an example about how I react poorly to extreme forms of feminism there later on. I've been thinking about it for a week or so, and dlowan just subtly nudged me over on that thread. I think it's fair to post it because I too am guilty of reacting badly to an edge when it comes to feminism and to be fair (or at least try to) I will posit a mea culpa for some bad reactions I have to a feminist edge.

Not sure I agree at all about the priviledge concept;
I do not feel "privileged" to be a member of a race that has systematically abused others, of virtually any discernable variation to wasp, over many many years; in spite of my non participation, I am embarassed! (So I burn {not in hell, you twits, in the sun!} easier; that's about it for "special"!)
The direction of education in this area should be to integrate knowledge and history of racial, and other predudice into ALL areas of curriculum, rather than implying by holding an inquest, that the subject is dead, and needs a pronouncement of the "autopsy" results!

And, if somone would provide a guide to the feminism thread being discussed I will attend.

It's not about feminism but rather extreme edges and if they can slice off bad elements in behavior. It's about feminism due to the fact that dlowan brought up some personal debates we have had and I have recently realized taht I am less tolerant of an extreme edge in feminism than I am in other areas.

Do social movements need an extreme edge?

Craven- I think that you bring up a good point. The extreme edges of any subject is much more likely to bring up negative reactions from people.

I think that there is a lot of prejudice in the US, and it isn't confined to black people. The disabled, young people, Jews, Catholics, the mentally ill, various immigrant groups, homosexuals, overweight people, etc. etc. have all been targets at one time or another for prejudice.

I think that young people, in the early grades, need to learn about the pernicious nature of prejudice. Someone had mentioned various classroom exercises that can be used to make young children aware that although people may look or act differently, we are all part of the same human family. These sorts of ideas need to be inculcated in children from the earliest years.

I do NOT care for the idea of whiteness studies. I think that these sorts of classes will do more to separate people than to bring them together.

In the US? Surely you jest. In humans!

I think we both agree on the classes. That being white offers benefits is a no-brainer. That it is inherently an uncomfortable subject is also.

I also think that it does not bring people together.

In any case, wait till I write up about how I react poorly to feminism in its "bleeding edge" (a tech term for "cutting edge").

What I accuse you of here is VERY similar to something I realized about myself.

I generally understand that after periods of one extreme an extreme of the opposite variety counters it. But I react poorly to this in the form of extreme feminism to the point of not considering myself a feminist anymore.

It's something I realized within the last fornight and is very relevant because it is identical to the reactions I decry here.

I hear you, craven. You make a good point about shooting oneself in the proverbial foot by alienating those who need to be reached the most. I would probably differ most clearly with you around the point that white privilege is a "no-brainer", and some of the replies here would support me on that - to some, not only is it NOT a no-brainer, but it is something that is anathema to consider. And while we differ on how to get to point B (awareness/tolerance), we are in agreement, I believe, about the necessity for us as a nation and as a species to acknowledge that some of our point A's are further away than others, and that point B is an as yet unachieved destination.

How can you have Humanities if you are explore humaness. One of the major experiences from the whites that I have read coming out of these courses is that they weren't aware to the extend of privilege that was being enjoyed.

As I wrote about earlier in this thread, once a strain of whiteness is lost, it is just that - gone (intermarriage with any other strain). It is so priviledged that it is the only ethinic group that you are either white or not white; ie, a person who is 1/3 white, 1/3 asian and 1/3 black can say they are asian or black but they can not say that they are white!

The conclusion is that as time goes on, white will always be diminishing.

Ah, I think many balk but when all is said and done I think most reasonable people would agree that there is at least some advantage of being part of a majority race.

I think people differ a bit about what to degree that advantage works. some really believe that racism is a thing of the past, others that institutionalized racism is.

I really do think that you were quite eager to have this thread come out a certain way, I've had many threads taht I really wanted to steer (for example a thread in which people argued the Iraq war from the opposite side's POV or the one in which I played a conservative) what I discovered is that the more you want to shape a thread the less likely it is to work out that way. I have abandoned every single one of my efforts.

While I do think the reponses here are partly due to the inherent issues you raised (this is why I think it was fair of you to assume that you'd opened a can of worms) I also think some responses are a reaction to what people see as you aiming for responses and your expectations are not being met. It's just a guess but that's what has kept me from answering your original post. I really have no idea where you wanted to go and it seemed taht you had a destination in mind. I held off because I have been very frustrated with my attempts to have a special thread when nobody cares or gets it.

IMO all of those issues complicate this particular thread. I think most of the people here are willing to agree taht being part of a majority race has some degree of benefit. Thing is, that's an easy thing to concede but what conclusions and direction you want to go from there might make some reluctant to jump on the bandwagon.

I'm just saying all of this because I want to make clear taht this topic came across as a loaded question to me. Some of it's inherent to the issue but some is due to the fact that you wanted meaningful responses and I am among those who were not sure (at least initially) about where you wanted to go with this.

But let's just find out about the no-brainer part. Can the people who read this answer the following?

Does anyone here think that there are no advantages in being part of the majority race?

Does anyone here think that there are no significant advantages to being part of the majority race?

Does anyone here think that the advantages of being part of the majority race do not outweigh the advantages of being a minority race (there is an upside and a downside to almost everything)?

Forgive me, Snood, but Craven, you wrote something I just have to ask about, as follows:

"... I generally understand that after periods of one extreme an extreme of the opposite variety counters it. But I react poorly to this in the form of extreme feminism to the point of not considering myself a feminist anymore. ..."

Say it ain't so, Craven. I object to so much and to so many organizations created in the name of feminism, however, I could never then conclude I won't consider myself a feminist anymore. You see, feminism (as I see it) is part of my core belief system and it doesn't matter if others self-identify as such; they shall not dissuade me from my own beliefs. Please reconsider your change of heart and don't let other feminists who are extreme (or in whatever other way unacceptable to you) allow you to turn your back on gender equality. Whaddya say?

Craven, you're confusing me a bit. You said two things - that you suspect I had an outcome (or certain kind of response) in mind from posting this thread, and that my expectations are being unfulfilled. Two, that you really have no idea what I expected. Let me clear that up for you - my only expectation was that the whole idea of a "white studies" class just wouldn't sit well with some people, and that expectation has been thoroughly validated, IMO, thank you very much. If I may be so bold as to offer you a suggestion, I would suggest that you not assume you know my motives any more intimately than I have spelled them out.

You started out by defending my right to posit the discussion question, but ended up sounding as if you thought I had somehow craftily set you and the other members of this forum (for whom my respect grows daily)
up. Again, I humbly suggest that I am not responsible for the reactions this discussion has elicited in the bosoms of yourself or anyone else, but only that I raise my points in a reasonably civilized way, and not give or take personal offense, as much as possible.

I have gone back and read lightly over snood's link again and I have to say, the actions of course participants and teachers seem fairly innocuous to me. The only people it ought to upset are the rabid racists or ones wishing to make certain political points. It isn't like getting Stokely Carmichael in your face, or early Malcolm X, after all.

I sense a lot of denial and fear also eb.

Was it Stokely, or H. Rap Brown who later became a staunch republican?

Or maybe Eldridge Cleaver?
(man, reading "Soul on Ice" as a teen really fucked up my head for awhile, but I digress...)