65
   

Don't tell me there's no proof for evolution

 
 
Pauligirl
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Aug, 2007 07:57 pm
0 Replies
 
aperson
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Aug, 2007 07:58 pm
Listen, an individual with x amount of genetic difference cannot breed with another individual. It would be best if you thought of each individual as exactly that. A tui doesn't suddenly give birth to a new species.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Aug, 2007 07:59 pm
real life wrote:
aperson wrote:
Yes it is.

However, a species does not change over one generation, as you are suggesting. Rosborne gave a very good explanation but you chose to warp it.


How is it warped?

A critter either can, or cannot, interbreed with members of the species into which it was born.

If it can, then it is of that same species.

If it cannot, then it will have no descendants and a 'new species' is toast. End of family line.


Ok.....I've had enough. Your dishonesty is putting your religion to shame.
0 Replies
 
aperson
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Aug, 2007 08:00 pm
Oh hi Pauligirl. While "speciation" can happen very fast, it doesn't happen in one generation.
0 Replies
 
aperson
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Aug, 2007 08:02 pm
Hi maporshe. God rl is infuriating.
0 Replies
 
Pauligirl
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Aug, 2007 08:12 pm
aperson wrote:
Oh hi Pauligirl. While "speciation" can happen very fast, it doesn't happen in one generation.


Oh, I know. Did something I post give that impression?
0 Replies
 
aperson
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Aug, 2007 08:13 pm
No I thought you were supporting rl.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Aug, 2007 08:18 pm
rl
Quote:
But you don't have them, that's why you reached for the spectacular (plate tectonics) and the ridiculous (a critter left home and never came back).

Both fall woefully short of what you need to demonstrate:

----Hundreds of millions (probably billions) of credible isolation events that lasted thousands (of millions ) of years, irrevocably separating POPULATIONS (not an individual from the herd)


Well, prove me wrong. I can give isolation mechanisms till you fall asleep but thats not the point. You dont want to really be educated, youre only interesetd in trying to post your lack of evidence .

Youre wrong about separating populations as a controlling mechanism. Genetic evidence shows that a derived species of kaibab squirrels , started with a founder population of less than 10 animals. (Futuyama)

You have really no idea that sexual isolation can take on single or many multiple methodologies acting singly or in complement. Only the result that the organisms become sexually isolated from each other is the important fact. That we can show by their genetic makeup. Thats why we have old world and new world monkeys, their separate appearances from fossil lemurids is coincedental with the beginning of the splitting of Pangea in the lower K(135 mya)(Rogers 2005). So there was an example of an extreme renting of cloth.

Your attempts at belittling science is a trademark of the Creatio-hucksters. You have nothing in your quiver, yet you try to stand on an equal footing and holler "wrong".
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Aug, 2007 08:23 pm
Pauligirls citations were quite clear, no impled single generation speciation in there. Great stuff as usual PG. (You know the drill, RL will try to scope out some minor point and make it appear major). 10-9-8-7-........
0 Replies
 
Pauligirl
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Aug, 2007 08:51 pm
aperson wrote:
No I thought you were supporting rl.



Nope, just trying to point out that he's wrong.

Wrong.
Wrong.
Wrong.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Aug, 2007 10:54 pm
real life wrote:
In your example, X ~~~~~~~~~~ Z, Z doesn't have to be able to breed with the original X to be considered part of the species.

Yes, it does. If it can't breed with it, then it's a different species, by definition.

real life wrote:
He only needs to be able to breed with living contemporary members of the species, who in turn met the same requirement when they were born, who in turn met the same requirement etc. stepwise back to the original X.

That is incorrect.

You are applying finite rules to infinite sets. Your logic is invalid.

Interestingly, the concept of a 'species' is only functional for us because there are no intact transitional lines going all the way back to an ancestor which is no longer able to breed with a descendant.

If such a line did exist we would not be giving names to different species.

Instead we would be saying that X and Z have become sufficiently different along the transitional line to be considered different species. The question of species would only be used as a comparison between two selected points in the transitional line.

In reality, life has no boundaries between generations no matter how deep. We create artificial boundaries by assigning names to certain conditions (breeding capacity being one), but the flow is seamless and endless.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 08:21 am
Let's try this again.

We'll see if we can have ANY evolutionist address this in a straightforward manner without dodging, dissembling, insults, accusations of stupidity, personal attacks on character, multiple assertions of how we just KNOW it MUSTA happened, etc. ---------

How does the very first member of any 'new species' produce offspring since there are no other members of his species to breed with?
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 08:24 am
real life wrote:

How does the very first member of any 'new species' produce offspring since there are no other members of his species to breed with?


Please cite for me ONE evolutionary paper, source, article, textbook, etc that makes this claim?

I'm done calling you dishonest, you are being an OUTRIGHT LIAR!
0 Replies
 
baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 08:35 am
maporsche wrote:
real life wrote:

How does the very first member of any 'new species' produce offspring since there are no other members of his species to breed with?


Please cite for me ONE evolutionary paper, source, article, textbook, etc that makes this claim?

I'm done calling you dishonest, you are being an OUTRIGHT LIAR!


Let me get this straight! RL asks a question - and you BOLDLY accuse him of being a liar. Please explain.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 08:47 am
real life wrote:
Let's try this again.

We'll see if we can have ANY evolutionist address this in a straightforward manner without dodging, dissembling, insults, accusations of stupidity, personal attacks on character, multiple assertions of how we just KNOW it MUSTA happened, etc. ---------

How does the very first member of any 'new species' produce offspring since there are no other members of his species to breed with?


Your question is disengenious..

Any species has variability within it..
X is the original species...

At some point X produces children Y and Z. Y can mate with X and produce Y or X, Z can mate with X and produce Z or X but Y can't mate with Z. Z can mate with Z and produce Z. Y can mate with Y and produce Y. X dies off leaving Y and Z. You now have 2 groups that can't mate but have the same ancestor.

This isn't just speculation RL.. If you bothered to read some of the posts on this thread you would have known this already has been observed. Over time 2 seperate populations from the same ancestors can evolve so those populations can no longer breed. That does not mean the populations can't breed amongst themselves. To suggest that they can't is to completely ignore the reality of this world.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 08:49 am
baddog1 wrote:
maporsche wrote:
real life wrote:

How does the very first member of any 'new species' produce offspring since there are no other members of his species to breed with?


Please cite for me ONE evolutionary paper, source, article, textbook, etc that makes this claim?

I'm done calling you dishonest, you are being an OUTRIGHT LIAR!


Let me get this straight! RL asks a question - and you BOLDLY accuse him of being a liar. Please explain.


Please see Parados' response below. If you don't see the problem in his question then I BOLDLY accuse you of being an idiot.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 08:59 am
maporsche wrote:
baddog1 wrote:
maporsche wrote:
real life wrote:

How does the very first member of any 'new species' produce offspring since there are no other members of his species to breed with?


Please cite for me ONE evolutionary paper, source, article, textbook, etc that makes this claim?

I'm done calling you dishonest, you are being an OUTRIGHT LIAR!


Let me get this straight! RL asks a question - and you BOLDLY accuse him of being a liar. Please explain.


Please see Parados' response below. If you don't see the problem in his question then I BOLDLY accuse you of being an idiot.



BRAVO!
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 09:24 am
parados wrote:
real life wrote:
Let's try this again.

We'll see if we can have ANY evolutionist address this in a straightforward manner without dodging, dissembling, insults, accusations of stupidity, personal attacks on character, multiple assertions of how we just KNOW it MUSTA happened, etc. ---------

How does the very first member of any 'new species' produce offspring since there are no other members of his species to breed with?


Your question is disengenious..

Any species has variability within it..
X is the original species...

At some point X produces children Y and Z. Y can mate with X and produce Y or X, Z can mate with X and produce Z or X but Y can't mate with Z. Z can mate with Z and produce Z. Y can mate with Y and produce Y. X dies off leaving Y and Z. You now have 2 groups that can't mate but have the same ancestor.

This isn't just speculation RL.. If you bothered to read some of the posts on this thread you would have known this already has been observed. Over time 2 seperate populations from the same ancestors can evolve so those populations can no longer breed. That does not mean the populations can't breed amongst themselves. To suggest that they can't is to completely ignore the reality of this world.
This thread is so long, it is difficult to search. Could you provide a reference?
0 Replies
 
baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 10:20 am
maporsche wrote:
baddog1 wrote:
maporsche wrote:
real life wrote:

How does the very first member of any 'new species' produce offspring since there are no other members of his species to breed with?


Please cite for me ONE evolutionary paper, source, article, textbook, etc that makes this claim?

I'm done calling you dishonest, you are being an OUTRIGHT LIAR!


Let me get this straight! RL asks a question - and you BOLDLY accuse him of being a liar. Please explain.


Please see Parados' response below. If you don't see the problem in his question then I BOLDLY accuse you of being an idiot.


Accuse all you wish. Now please explain how a question = lying.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 10:28 am
baddog1 wrote:
maporsche wrote:
baddog1 wrote:
maporsche wrote:
real life wrote:

How does the very first member of any 'new species' produce offspring since there are no other members of his species to breed with?


Please cite for me ONE evolutionary paper, source, article, textbook, etc that makes this claim?


I'm done calling you dishonest, you are being an OUTRIGHT LIAR!


Let me get this straight! RL asks a question - and you BOLDLY accuse him of being a liar. Please explain.


Please see Parados' response below. If you don't see the problem in his question then I BOLDLY accuse you of being an idiot.


Accuse all you wish. Now please explain how a question = lying.
0 Replies
 
 

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